.jpg)
The Trombone Retreat
The Trombone Retreat
Ian Bousfield's Harmonious World
We're now on YouTube! Enjoy this episode with our new enhanced video content on our YouTube channel, please like and subscribe!!
Join us for an inspiring conversation with the legendary trombonist Ian Bousfield as we navigate through the vibrant realm of trombone music. Ian shares his incredible journey in an engaging discussion on the transformative power of music in an unforgettable exploration of musical connections and experiences.
Our discussion unfolds the unexpected bonds formed through podcasting, illustrating how stories and respectful discourse can bridge diverse backgrounds. Ian reflects on how podcasting became a therapeutic platform during COVID, offering a space to share opinions and connect with a global audience. The episode emphasizes the importance of understanding music within its cultural context, drawing parallels with wine tasting, and appreciating unique musical interpretations. Insights into the dynamics of conducting in different regions and the evolving definition of musical success provide a deeper understanding of the art form.
Furthermore, Ian reveals the emotional depth and familial influences that shape a musician's legacy. He shares touching stories of nurturing resilience in children, balancing a demanding career with family life, and inspiring the next generation of musicians. Through candid anecdotes, Ian recounts pivotal career moments and the enduring friendships formed along the way, from the London Symphony Orchestra to the Vienna Philharmonic. This episode is a celebration of music's profound impact on personal and professional life, encapsulating the shared experiences that unite the global trombone community.
Also introducing special features with Patreon: www.patreon.com/tromboneretreat
Learn more about the Trombone Retreat and upcoming festival here: linktr.ee/tromboneretreat
Hosted by Sebastian Vera - @js.vera (insta) and Nick Schwartz - @basstrombone444 (insta)
Produced and edited by Sebastian Vera
Music: Firehorse: Mvt 1 - Trot by Steven Verhelst performed live by Brian Santero, Sebastian Vera and Nick Schwartz
Thank you to our season sponsor Houghton Horns: www.houghtonhorns.com
Support the show
Welcome to the Trombone Retreat podcast of the Third Coast Trombone Retreat. Today on the podcast, I hang out with Ian Bousfield. My name is Sebastian Vera and man, first of all, hi, we're still alive, we're still around. You know, we'll never leave you. So something I'm pretty excited to announce is we have a YouTube channel. Some of you are already subscribed, but our YouTube we haven't really been exercising it. We kind of use it to post some audio content. We have some really cool videos of past recitals. There's an amazing James Markey recital video from the Trombone Retreat.
Speaker 1:But I've really been into the idea of enhancing the podcast and creating experiential content, travel content. I love to travel, if you haven't heard me talk about it, and I had a chance to take an amazing trip to Europe this summer. I went to Germany, austria and Switzerland. I mainly was flying to Bremen, germany, to get my Tine trombone designed. I'm extremely excited and love my trombone and got to hang out in the factory and stay there and hang out with Max and Olaf, and so I have some really cool videos from there. Then I went on to Hamburg, germany, which I fell in love with. I think most people kind of have this idea of Germany if they're not from Europe. Americans most of our idea of Germany is basically Bavaria and Oktoberfest, but Hamburg felt like New York in a lot of ways. It's an incredible, vibrant, modern city and I got to hang out with my really good friend, jonas Burrow. He plays in the Staatsorchester Hamburg. Got to see that incredible Hall of the Elbphilharmonie that's right on the river if you've never seen it, and it was just amazing. Went to Berlin for the first time for incredible hall the Elbphilharmonie. That's right on the river if you've never seen it, and it was just amazing. Went to Berlin for the first time for a couple days. Saw my really good friend, alex Nisbet. He showed me all around. We had amazing walk.
Speaker 1:I went to Prague. If you can tell, I was living on trains for a while, but Prague is one of my favorite cities. It's just beautiful. The lighting downtown, it's just this magical, mysterious city. And and saw my good friend, tom Borrell, who wrote the Borrell Trombone Concerto that I premiered at the ITF. He's one of the most talented young composers I've ever been around, so check out his music. Then I went to Vienna and got to hang out with Peter Steiner and Constanza for a couple days and they showed me all around the city Constanza's from there and it was just really cool. We found Albrecht's Burgers grave, which was really unique. Kind of stumbled on that.
Speaker 1:And then I went to Munich and randomly my friends in the Pittsburgh Symphony were on tour and it was the first day of their tour and they just happened to be there the same day I was planning on being there. So we had this huge dinner and hung out and I saw another good friend, felix Eckert, who's principal trombone in the Bavarian Radio Orchestra, and he gave us a tour of their opera there. And then I finally went to Baron and this is where this interview and this video take place. I saw, of course, our good friend, justin Clark, who's bass trombonist of the Baron Symphony, there and I went paragliding and there's going to be a video of that. He interviewed me in the sky and he has an amazing YouTube channel Check out. It's called Hot Air. It's honestly one of the most beautiful YouTube channels I've ever seen and it barely has any subscribers because no one. He doesn't advertise it, but he takes people up and does interviews and it's really cool.
Speaker 1:And that's now where Ian Bousfield is living and he invited me into his beautiful home, got to meet his amazing wife, johanna, and I met his daughter and we just had an amazing talk. I've wanted to interview Ian for a long time and he's just, of course, an incredible trombonist and always been inspiring to me. I've had limited interactions with him in the past. We talked about it, I played in a masterclass for him and I've heard him perform and seen some talks, but he's just such an open person and he communicates so well. You know, check out his podcast, the Ian Bousfield Experience. We had a really cool talk. He gave me a mini tour of his house and his trombone studio and practice space and it was just an incredibly enlightening talk and I think you're really going to enjoy it, especially if you go over to our YouTube channel at Trombone Retreat, please subscribe. It would be so awesome to get our followers up. We just have like 500 or so, but it'd be great if we got the same following as we have on our podcast and on Instagram, so check that out Also.
Speaker 1:I'm about to go hop on a plane again, so I'm gonna go meet Nick Schwartz in London. He's already there hanging out doing stuff that Nick Schwartz does, and we've been invited by the British Trombone Festival and the British Trombone Society to do a live podcast at their event at the British Trombone Festival 2024, october 26th to 27th, and we'll be interviewing the incredible soloist, peter Moore, who used to be principal trombone in the London Symphony. You may know him from his fame growing up as a kid. On these viral videos of I think it was like Britain's Next Classical Music Star and I believe he won that competition. I'm excited to meet him and hang out and meet all these trombonists in England. I'm super excited about that. I'm going to judge a competition and Nick's going to judge a competition and I'm doing Master a competition and Nick's gonna judge a competition and I'm doing master class at the conservatory there. It's gonna be a really short but sweet but fun little trip.
Speaker 1:We will have a booth in the vendors area for the Trombone Retreat, so please come and say hi. I'll have my limited edition JSV mouthpieces, my one and two. Come try, and Nick will have mouthpieces from Long Island Brass. So come hang out. I think we may have some stickers too. So let's see. What else am I missing here? I hope you enjoy this podcast. Go check it out on YouTube, but it's also an audio form coming up. Thank you to Houghton Horns for your support, and HoughtonHornscom is, of course, where you can go find those JSV mouthpieces. Houghton Horns, first class brass. Houghtonhornscom. Enjoy the podcast. Let's start. You know it's like a.
Speaker 1:It'll also be cool just to talk to you about podcasting in general, because I don't get to talk to many other people that one do podcasts and two like trombone adjacent, which is how I like to describe what we do, because it's you know, we have a lot of listeners that and you've probably had the same experience where you're just surprised there's people in certain places listening, and a lot of listeners that don't even play the trombone, are't even musicians, and they just like hearing stories. Because, you know, I feel like everyone has a story. Um, we share this thing that we play this trombone, but everyone has a unique experience and you know values and you know how they came to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's so true, I've been. I think when I started doing my podcast it was kind of like a bit of COVID therapy, for, as you remember, those days where we didn't know whether the world as we knew it would ever return and we didn't know quite what the future would look like, and it was a very difficult time for us all. Bank managers knew they were going to go back to being bank managers, but we didn't know whether the face of music had been changed forever and we didn't know how long this thing was going to go on. And so in many ways, the podcast that I did you were talking about doing a solo podcast. A lot of the ones that I did during COVID were like therapy. I would go into a room and I'd talk, if you like, to my other self, the person I was talking to. I was just having a conversation with myself, and even now I'll go and conduct a brass section in Norway or coach an orchestra in Germany or something, and a viola player or a bassoon player will come up and say you know, thank you so much for this podcast. Of that podcast, the weirdest one I had was a bank manager. Hmm, I, so I, when we bought the chalet in the Alps. I was just dealing with a bank manager for want of a better word an investor who I know, and he said so have you had your Sancho green tea yet this morning, you know? And I said, martin, how do you know this? And he said well, I listen to your podcast. How did he find out? Well, I think he Googled and he found you know whatever? And he said so I've subscribed and listen to your podcast, he said. And he said it's amazing how similar what you do is in many ways to what we do.
Speaker 2:I also have a former student, john Hall. John, who was one of my first ever students in the early 90s, and he, who was one of my first ever students in the early 90s, and he went on. He was the dot-com specialist for the Financial Times in the 90s and then they moved him to San Francisco and he became friends with Steve Jobs and Gavin Newsom. He's all of those people. He's extremely successful. I don't want to go into all of the list of businesses that he consults for now because I shouldn't do that, should I? But he contacted me and said you know so much of what I do. I learn partly with you and partly with studying with others on the trombone.
Speaker 2:So, it's amazing how you know how it sort of spreads out. So this podcasting thing that we have now is really quite cool.
Speaker 1:Everything really translates. And it's just a fascinating thing. There's something nice about having you know we do this thing. That's very public and you know like, come to my concert, I do this thing, buy my cd. But there's something nice about anyone you meet in any situation.
Speaker 2:You can have this thing where you're like hey, pick up, pick up your phone and you can hear this thing that I do it's true, yeah, yeah it's, it's, it's really nice. I mean, as I said also, I kind of I came out of covid a little bit scared because we were like, as we were going through this time in our world where having an opinion was dangerous, um well, you've never had any opinions.
Speaker 1:No, that's right.
Speaker 2:I usually sort of hide them up my sleeve. Actually, what you hear on the podcast is about 30%. But I was like it's dangerous to have an opinion, and particularly American educational institutes. We're going through a bit of a tough time in that regard. So I kind of stopped doing of a tough time in that regard, you know. So I kind of stopped doing the podcast. But now I don't care anymore. Now I've got an opinion so I'll give it hopefully, respectfully and hopefully a very well-considered opinion. And you should never be, you know you should never. There are lines you shouldn't cross.
Speaker 1:But if you've got an opinion on certain styles of playing or conductors or whatever you know, yeah it's what people want to hear, yeah I feel like as long as you're not directly affecting someone's livelihood oh, absolutely, you can't be, or you know they're in a lot of ways you could define livelihood. Um, I feel like we're we're scared of of disagreeing with each other. You don't see debate. I see that in England more. Who's that? Is it a BBC person? It's like is it Crossfire, where he just basically attacks a guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or really debates in the post-hocs. Yeah, there's something on CNN or something. There's no BBC, you're right.
Speaker 1:No, there's an English one, and I'm like you don't hear that in America, like because we're so afraid of conflict, we need to just be like raw, raw on one side or the other and it's just. It's refreshing that you can like discuss something with someone and have opinions.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think one of the one of the positive whether it should be compulsory to have free range eggs, or whether we should ban diesel cars from cities or whatever, and the people vote. In fact, they just had one some time ago. They had one. They said on average, most European countries have 28 days more holiday in the year than we do. Here are the reasons why, obviously, it would be a good idea, and here are the reasons why we don't think it would be a good idea. It lost 75%.
Speaker 1:For more holidays.
Speaker 2:Yep, the Swiss people said we don't want to reduce our productivity, okay, and that you know. So if you people are not as stupid as governments would like them to be, mm-hmm, you know. And if you give people are not as stupid as governments would like them to be, and if you give them a responsibility, obviously now, if you introduce that in America it would be mayhem for the first quarter of the century Because there'd be all kinds of strange things getting through, or in the UK.
Speaker 2:But in Switzerland it's reasonable because the very government puts out the reasons for and the reasons against. It legitimizes people in society having different opinions, because the government's showing you both sides and they're apparently not supposed to show any bias on either side. So I think in music, in the trombone world, it's a human nature to want to draw lines, you know, and that's really the next stage we have to get over. We're all in the same family, we're all in the same business. And I find that with my own students, if I speak what is apparently critically about another trombone player, they think I don't like that person. I'm trying to curate opinions like what do you think about this? Do you like this? Do you not like this? And it doesn't mean to say that I don't wish that particular trombone player all of the best. And however they're earning money, good for them. We want as many of us making money and having a wonderful career as possible. You know it's not like trying to push each other off the top of a mountain, you know.
Speaker 1:But by doing that, you're helping them identify their voice by like, seeing like. I like this, I don't like this. What am I going from? Each person.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's the whole reason for it is to say do you like that? Why do you like that? What is it about it? Well, I like. Well, have you heard this? Can you hear this in what they're doing?
Speaker 1:and it's and particularly also with other teachers who have a lot of respect for I'll say don't think they get that right I remember now that you said that I think I remember hearing maybe an early podcast and I'm gonna be paranoid and double check that the camera's filming, because that's my biggest fear in life. Um yeah, we're good, tell me about it.
Speaker 2:Um, you know you talk about these podcasts. I've actually, johanna, and I almost never argue or disagree. There's never. But there was one like 30 minute ramble that I did for a whole podcast and I was really happy with it. That's what I want and she said didn't record. Oh, can you do it again?
Speaker 1:it's like oh my mic is on. My mic is on. Okay. Biggest fear yeah, like, how often am I here? Um, yeah, I, I think you mentioned it was something about. It was during the pandemic and it was for students like how to listen and I think you talked about.
Speaker 1:There's like an active listening and a passive listening, where you know I'm actively studying a recording and really analyzing what I think about these decisions and then I'm putting it on in the background and seeing how it makes me feel big picture stuff and how both is really important mm-hmm, I, my daughter, is obsessed with Maria Callas and listens to her the whole time. That's awesome but you know what? He's not Taylor.
Speaker 2:Swift. I think she knows who that is. I don't, but I think she does. What the really cool thing about what we do is? It's like my daughter's obsessed with Maria Callas. We were watching a video of her singing in La Scala and I said would you like to go to La Scala? And she said yeah. And I said would you like to go to La Scala? And she said yeah, yeah. I said would you like to go and stand right there? And she said yeah, dad points Danny, you know, I don't normally have you got any. And he said yeah, we're doing Gurr-Lieder in September. Do you want to come and play the alto part? Yeah, the only thing is my daughter would like to. Oh, sure, that's no problem, and we've even got Maria Callas' costumes. We can show them to her, you know.
Speaker 1:So I mean, how cool is that.
Speaker 2:Just to be able to say well, I don't normally play in orchestras, but you know we're going to do that, Anyway. So I was listening to some Maria Callas last things and, um, johanna came and said we're going to talk about something, about the kids or whatever you know, and all of a sudden I was talking about who's going to pick the kids up from school or wherever, and I realized there was water running down my face, normally known as tears. Yes, I don't, that's how I experienced english.
Speaker 1:I thought they didn't cry. I'm not really English.
Speaker 2:I'm a Leeds United football supporter, so you get used to it.
Speaker 1:I'm Everton, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a nice good club to support. I don't get that very often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no great, and you know it's like I wasn't listening, but he was having an effect on me. He's going in subconsciously. It was really really bizarre. And so there's, I think particularly young players sit down and they want to make decisions Good, bad, like it, don't like it.
Speaker 2:Rather than identifying, when you're tasting wine, you identify what the wine is. I don't mean like it's from here, like what are the qualities of this wine, whether you like it or not. If you're a professional wine taster which I on occasion have been you're not deciding whether you like it or not. That might be the last question you ask. You know, what is this? What are the qualities of it? Is it true to its terroir? It's an italian recording. Does it sound italian? What is it to sound italian?
Speaker 2:You know it's it's, and I I think that's the problem that a lot of trombone players make. It's this tribal thing. It's like this person's the best trombone player in the world. And if you ask me who's the best trombone player in the world, I would find that really it's like saying what? What's your favourite wine? And the answer is well, it depends what I'm eating, or whether the sun's shining, or whether it's winter or summer, or who I'm with, what the occasion is, I'll give you the best wine in the world.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, for 20 different scenarios, it'd be 20 different wines, so it depends what I'm listening to, you know, and so to stop thinking this is my favorite trombone player, this is my favorite marla symphony, this is my, you know, and I think that's the first step to to learning how to listen, and that gets us out of the uh, the comparison game, which you know, it's something I talk about a lot, um, about, you know, we're not all trying to be one, the best version of one thing you know, no, no, because that's a recipe for, you know, depression in a lot of ways constantly comparing yourself, like obviously understanding what you're interpreting and everything you know, bringing your own voice to the thing.
Speaker 1:Gosh, just talking to you, these little files in my head of memories. So I'll tell you, we've actually interacted, I believe, once before, and I've seen you. So the first time I saw you play was Denton, texas, university of North Texas, itf 2002.
Speaker 2:Wow, good memory I was fat and I had a beard. That is not something I recall. And I was with allison. I was with with wife number two I actually spoke to on the phone yesterday for half an hour. She's now officially my sister, kind of thing. So you know, we're just really close. It's cool, it's really good, you know I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about all your wives yep, let's do it, and I think you played bluebells or you played a prior.
Speaker 2:Oh, I usually do.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know, and it was wonderful, I loved it. And then and you did a round table with other you know, orchestra principals, and then you came to I was in grad school at the Manus College of Music.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And you came on either, a Vienna tour 2004. Yeah, and I played for you. I played the ride for you, Ah, okay. And there's two things I remember from that master class. One you talked about the prevalence of hernias with trombone players, Ah yes, and how we often are working too hard with how our instruments built, which we could talk about that forever. But one thing that really stuck with me, and kind of on the topic of what you're saying and please correct me if I'm telling the story incorrectly but like understanding styles in different cultures and different music especially. You know, I live in America, living here. You know I've been in three countries in the last week, which is just so cool and you see all the subtle differences.
Speaker 1:And you talked about, like, okay, when I really wanted to understand how to interpret French music, I went and asked my colleague, who was French, and he was like, oh well, you just play, it's really easy, you just play the notes on the page and you know the story. And then I asked my Italian colleague how do I interpret Italian music? Oh, it's really easy. Like, how do I interpret Italian music? Oh, it's really easy, you just play the notes on the page. And you had this epiphany. Where it's about, you need to go to the place, eat the food hear the language, feel the weather and that's when it starts, Is that?
Speaker 2:kind of how you have to understand the culture. You have to understand, really, if we're going to be stylistically accurate, there are two ways of approaching it. There's a really one of the world's most big time conductors who I want name, who is very famous for german repertoire, now never conducts in america because he's so busy. He just sticks to three or four orchestras and he said what he liked about conducting in america was every morning he would start with a white piece of paper and he could write anything he wanted on there and he liked that, like there was no sort of origin. You know, you could start with a Bruckner symphony and do anything you want with it. You know they weren't sitting there, sort of like this is our music and we play it this way. And, as opposed to that, you go to an orchestra like the Vienna Philharmonic or the Berlin Philharmonic or Stadtschapel, whatever, and there's this kind of established heritage as to how you do, because that's the place on the earth that the music, if you like, comes from, and so if you wish to change that, it's like trying to steer a huge ship, it's, you know, you can turn as much as you like, but it's gonna go straight on for quite a while. So if you truly are interested in the stylistic origins of the music and I can see the case for both, whether you do or you don't then you have to look into what were the instruments they played on. So if you want to play a Bruckner symphony, you need well, first of all. Let's take that as an interesting example, because the first eight Bruckner symphonies, I believe, were played on alto, tenor and bass valve trombones. Probably a good reason to change that, but that was the origin of the music, and so at the time the whole brass section was playing on rotary valves, from the tuba to the horns. So that would have been much more unanimous. Whether it would have been a great sound or not, I don't know, it would have been unanimous.
Speaker 2:So shortly after that you've got the Krushpies and the Heckels, you know, going to the 1880s, 1890s, the first Germanic romantic trombones which, for the record, are not medium-bore trombones. This theory that the German romantic trombone is a medium bore instrument or dual bore is not true. Lech and Krushby didn't start making medium bore. Dual bore was still 1920. And I think it was partly due to the onset of jazz and that sort of thing. And so back in those days you know they were a larger bore we played 5-4-5, they were 5-5-5. They're actually bigger Really. They're actually bigger and they're actually bigger. I have some hearing.
Speaker 1:Did that give like a width to the sound?
Speaker 2:The really fascinating thing about it was if you look at the first trombone parts to Lulu or Wozzeck or something like that, you think wow, they must have been, because I mean, like today we find it tough, wozzeck, all on the tenor trombone, by the way, folks, and it's I find it much easier on notes, even though they're bigger. It's really. It's kind of like you find the middle of the note any way you want.
Speaker 1:It's got a huge center yeah yeah. You can spin a lot of air through it, yeah and it's not.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and that's it. You put a lot of air in but not much comes out. You can go bang and it goes whoo. You know it's really so in many ways inefficient. The instruments that we've got now are so efficient. You just go boom the opposite. You know so. But if you want to know the heritage, you need to look at the history. What was the politics? What was the society.
Speaker 2:Who was Bruckner? Where did he come from? What were the instruments? How did it sound? Play those instruments. Play Mahler III on a 1892 heckle, which I've done. It's like that's the sound that Mahler had in his head, and those things, for example. You can't break the sound on them. You get to a certain point and then they go and they stop, so you can't make an aggressive sound on them.
Speaker 1:So it's always like a.
Speaker 2:It's always big, it's always warm, and that's got to key in, it's got to change your approach as to how you play this stuff. So if you really want to take it seriously, that's the route you go down. Who was Mahler? When was he? Where was he? You know, going through all of that, do the study. You know what did it mean. You know what did the instrument sound like? What are the articulations? Why did he write an accent on every note? I assume by that he didn't want it legato.
Speaker 1:Something I've been talking to on this trip with a lot of trombonists is like how do you, how do you feel the relationship between just language and the way people articulate in certain countries is I've heard that their style?
Speaker 2:I'm kind of I've been through that. It's like people from the south of the us saying we can't play fast because we don't articulate when we speak and that if you listen to me, I'm from the north of England, so it's like you know when we talk. So I've heard examples that support that and also don't support that, so I'm not sure I think it could play a role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like in Germany, for example. I feel like they really enunciate clearly yeah, you know, in my German friends think I'm mumbling all the time when they hear English. And and from what I've been told you know, some of their attacks may seem stronger than what we're used to in the States at times, but I mean, I guess it's so. It's so. You can't generalize the entire country.
Speaker 2:I think that's a stylistic thing.
Speaker 2:If you listen to the greatest recordings, if you listen to Death and Transfiguration Zell 1954, if you listen to Sinfonia Domestica, rainer, 1958,. Those orchestras were largely immigrant orchestras. They were a mixture of russians and you know germans or whatever french it was. You know as well as a lot of americans as well, and listen to the articulation of those american orchestras back then and listen to the same orchestras playing those pieces now. It's not like that. I listened the other night to a remarkable recording, vorzhak seventh symphony, london symphony, antal dorati, in the 60s exactly, and I'm not talking about brass plays, the articulation you get from the strings, the polarization of the difference between legato and detached and the, the greater understanding of the phrases that comes through that, and you listen to the london symphony orchestra like with colin davis recording of it. Now it's gone, that articulation's gone. So that's america, that's england. If you listen to, I think the vienna philharmonic is probably still the last orchestra that really will ping the front of notes, one of them, which is the same as they always did.
Speaker 2:I think what went wrong stylistically and in a brass playing point of view is people say have you heard those recordings of the Vienna Philharmonic in the 30s and the 40s and 50s or the Berlin Philharmonic. Have you heard the trombone playing? It's horrible and it is. It's rancid, it's out of tune. Usually you can hear the second trombone player is on the way towards retirement and it's destroying all of the chords. Yeah, and if you listen to the London Symphony, the Cleveland, chicago recordings of the same time, it's like well, there's no comparison. You know, it's like this is world-class brass playing. This is not. That's not to say there weren't some world-class brass players in those orchestras at the time. There were. In the Vienna and Berlin there were some world masters. But he doesn't mean the style was wrong.
Speaker 2:And I think that's where it went wrong. You know, if you want to listen to that and say that's really bad trombone section playing, agree, yeah, listen you know, but yeah, is. Is that? What about the sound? What about you know? So I think that's where we can lose context if we're not careful and that's why I love getting opinions of non-musicians you know, oh, thank you I love thank you nice to meet.
Speaker 1:You tell me what you do again um, like, for example, that I used to be obsessed with, like on sirius xm, which is this like satellite thing? I don't know the radio, I don't think they have it here, are they maybe? Um, they used to have the met opera player and they had archives from the beginning of the metropole opera and they play recordings late at night from like the 20s and you would. You know, it's the same thing with, you know, the brass playing, but the, but the excitement of the style and the energy they played with. It was like rock and roll.
Speaker 2:And any person that listens to that is going to connect to that emotion. Is it Bruno Valter? Is it NBC or the old? Like if the Bruno Valter Brahms symphonies with NBC.
Speaker 1:Some of those big records, you know they should have stopped recording Brahms symphonies.
Speaker 2:Right there. It's like like, okay, everything that happened after that, with the exception perhaps of the Carlos Kleiber ones, you know. But and then, of course, recording changed with Karajan, because I think one of the problems we have is when I went to Vienna, the guy said, oh, when we did Don Carlos with Karajan. The guy said, oh, when we did Don Carlos with Carrion. It was like, oh, you know, and he was saying what's the problem? Didn't you eat breakfast? Come on, you know, I never played for Carrion. I missed out on him because when I was in the European Youth Orchestra, we didn't want to play for him because we were idealistic and we actually said, no, we don't want to do that. And can you imagine that?
Speaker 1:So could you describe that Because of the Second.
Speaker 2:World War, perceived Second World War connections, and a group of young players said we don't think we want to do that. That group of players is now, by the way, the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. We're the ones who moved away into that, and it's great. When you're young, you need to be idealistic. You know it seems quite extreme.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about younging in a little bit, oh God.
Speaker 2:Don't no, I you know what.
Speaker 1:York, England.
Speaker 2:There are two types of people, as far as I can see. There are the growers and the developers and there are those who are what they are and I think, partly because I never really had a teacher as a trombonist, I've always realized that I've had to be the searcher. I've had to be constantly searcher, I've had to be constantly trying to develop and find answers. I think if there's any success in my teaching it's due to its originality. As in, I've had to work. Of course, I've tried to steal from whoever I can, you know, from Arnold Jacobs, through there can be a benefit to that in a way, because you don't have all these.
Speaker 2:I've never been indoctrinated yeah either as a trombone player or as a teacher, and so that means I believe in the freedom of the individuals in front of me to make their own decisions. Joe lessee doesn't sound like glenn dodgson. Christian limburg doesn't sound like Glenn Dodgson. Christian Lindbergh doesn't sound like his teacher. You know, maybe Jürgen sounds a bit like Michel. Maybe I certainly don't sound like. I did quite a few lessons with Dudley Bright. I don't sound like him, although his sound is in my head probably with every note that I ever play, as in in every lesson there's something from Niklaus Harlenkor, michael Tilson, thomas, claudio Abbado you name it Schulte. But I kind of realized I had to grow and develop. I realized in my 20s I didn't really like who I was, and so Trombone-wise or person-wise.
Speaker 2:Well, actually, my trombone playing changed, and personally as well, and so I think with every young person who stands in front of me, I make it clear to them they can be whoever and whatever they want. They can grow into that, and so the development that I've had emotionally, psychologically, spiritually is something that continues until today. I never start from the position that I know really a lot about anything. I'm always trying to learn, which has led me. Before we started, I was actually looking at becoming, you know, starting my own snail farm. You know it's like looking into it in detail. I'm open to anything. You know it's like learning about wine. You know it's about learning about food.
Speaker 1:That's the cool thing, because everything you've learned from pursuing an art you realize when you apply it to other things. You can apply these skills and often you see musicians. Their learning curve is.
Speaker 2:My son, who is 38 years old and lives on the other side of Bern. That's an interesting life story. I don't know whether you'll listen to this. He's a great kid. I left his mom when he was 11 and my daughter was nine. And for anyone who's been divorced, there was one thing I didn't expect and that was a look in his eye when I told him and that has haunted me for the rest of my life and we always had a great relationship and we always spent a lot of time together. But about four years ago he sold his house, he sold his stuff up in England and got in his car and he drove here to Switzerland and he said kind of along the lines of you left me, I'm coming back, wow. And so he moved in, actually right at the start of COVID and no one was giving anyone a job. So a year later he was still living with his dad and our little kids love him. He's their brother and they're really cool, turn up to school. This is my brother.
Speaker 2:He's a big boy and he works out a lot. And think Sam Schlosser. He's kind of like that size of guy and he was a trombone player when he was a kid and he was a trombone player when he was a kid and he gave it up when he was 16 because he said he didn't like practicing and he got nervous and I said, well, maybe I should give it up as well. And so he was unemployed for a year and he learned mother tongue, french and German Because he just got up in the morning and he worked. And it was that goal orientated ability to look at things in a different way that he'd learned from being a musician, which he himself says.
Speaker 2:Now he's a fantastic job and he's married and you know, so it's really cool. But that education that we get as musicians, as trombone players too, I think you know, like I say, patience is work without expectation of reward. If you go and do two hours practice and expect anything out of it, you're going to be disappointed. I'm still trying to fix things I've been working on for 40 years, you know, and I never will. I know I never will fix them, but I still try every day.
Speaker 1:I mean, isn't that nice in a way, if we look? At it like that, art is imperfectible. I mean, it's the only thing I never got bored at it reminds us of our humanity.
Speaker 2:I think that it is very human to screw up. It's about the pursuit, and I think that may be where music is partly going wrong now, because I think the idea of what's screwing up has changed. You know getting things right. He's now playing the right notes. I remember 20-odd years ago he might even have been in Denton. No, it was before that. I sat on the jury for an ITF competition with a guy called John Swallow was first trombone in the Metropolitan.
Speaker 1:Opera Taught at Yale.
Speaker 2:And played the first performance of the Gunther Schuller Eine kleine Pizzana music and I was on the jury with him and you know this kid got up and played all the notes. He's quite a famous player now and I like that, you know. And John said, yeah, but don't forget, unmusicality is also a technical weakness. Ooh, unmusicality. And you know, I think we've forgotten that to an extent. Jürgen van Rijn on his live recording of the Tomasi he missed notes and I loved it, and he put them on that and I think that is a sign of your greatness.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like the closest I've got to do with that is if you listen to Mahler 2 with Pierre Boulez and the Vienna Philharmonic. That and we went into the playback room. It was taken from the concert and the producer looked at me and Boulez looked at me and I said it's a bit high. And they said do you want to do it again? I said no, that's what I did and see it's high on the Deutsche Grammophon recording. It's what I did. It's life. And there's a great English saying which is if you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough. So audiences love hearing people pushing themselves to the point where it's almost going to break.
Speaker 1:Come on, tim, is this the garden?
Speaker 2:Oh don't. That's terrible. It's a mess this year. But oh, they're the raised beds, but they're in a terrible mess and then that's a lot of really nice potential in there.
Speaker 1:That's cool. There's the pool.
Speaker 2:We almost did the interview there, you know, yeah, there we go and here's the kitchen, with my wife, and this is what do you have? You got a sourdough done, yep, wow, that's for Anik.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 3:Beans on toast, on rice, that's a classic. And some sourdough bread coming.
Speaker 2:I'll show you my son's very dirty bedroom because you'll see, here's my, that's my boy's room, with his mice and his Lego and all that sort of stuff. Legos are universal. So we've had a bit of a break now for two reasons.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Politics Talk and Snail Talk with Ian Bousfield and Sebastian Vera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's August in Switzerland, so it's getting a bit chilly now, Do you actually?
Speaker 1:do you mind setting the scene a little bit?
Speaker 2:Okay, as I look through the window there, I can see right to the other side of Bern. So we're just on the outskirts of Bern, which is a beautiful, beautiful medieval city.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh yeah, walking around like this is incredible.
Speaker 2:It's totally untouched by any wall. So the history goes right back. We live here. We have a very fortunate I have an extremely large house here. We live on the downstairs. The upstairs we do as an Airbnb, which is booked out the whole time, which is fantastic downstairs.
Speaker 1:Thanks for offering it to me.
Speaker 2:There you go, it was booked you should have told me in more time. You know it's like it gets booked out, we could have blocked it. Um, recording studio downstairs, swimming, swimming pool just down there, a huge wine cellar down there, and this is where we kind of live and work. So I travel to zurich airport from here, I teach, um, my, my class here, uh, I record my podcast and we have actually going to do my first attempt at recording properly downstairs in the studio. We've just finished building it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to try that this afternoon. And then this afternoon I'll get on the train and go to our other place, which is at a thousand meters up in the Alps, just above Montreux. So we're looking at these lovely mountains called the Dents de Midi and on the other side of that is Mont Blanc. So we're looking at these lovely mountains called the Dents de Midi and on the other side of that is Mont Blanc, so we're right up there. So that's where we go to spend our free time when we get it, if we get it and I've just seen my schedule till Christmas and I haven't got much of that, but it's close enough.
Speaker 1:But you love that right, you love being busy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I do I business. Yeah, yeah, I, I do, I do. I think the great thing is I do so many different things um that I'll never get stuck. I mean, if you look at what I've done this summer, I did a tour with the. There's this brass ensemble, vienna philharmonic, berlin philharmonic, kind of german brass mixed mixture called the philharmonic Brass. I went and did a tour with them, which was fantastic, amazing group, wow. And then I had a little tour with the Brass Quintet, with the Reinhold Friedrich Brass Quintet, which is Reinhold Birun Berviard, two of the best trumpet players in the world.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not often I sit down and say, you know, thanks for letting me play. You know, thanks for letting me play, you know, but it's really is. That's been nice did a wonderful um master class in sweden jim markey was there as well, which was great. Coach. The gustav mahler youth orchestra I'm just getting ready to do a recital, then I'm going to go play in la scala and you know it's. And then I've got some solo concerts in england and then there's concertos with orchestra and that sort of stuff. So if you look at all of the different things that I do, and then every time I go to teach. It's really a privilege because I think you know one after other big time student is coming through the door and they're more in practice than I am and and they're more motivated than I am, and they get better and I don't.
Speaker 2:You know. No, but this year all five of the leavers will be sitting in an orchestra on the 1st of September, and last year four out of five.
Speaker 1:What a great feeling. Right, you must not be doing something wrong.
Speaker 2:You know it's Every September. I'm in mourning, I feel like, yeah, these students are okay, but not like the ones that just left Such wonderful people and they all played so well. And then I realized that every September and to watch people, it's like. So the question is do I have any superstars in my class? In September is not yet. That's the answer.
Speaker 1:Not yet. No, If they were, would you tell them if they?
Speaker 2:were. I think it's really important that everyone knows what they can do. I really do. I will spend depending on the personality type, I will spend up to three months establishing with someone what it is that they do. Well, because there will be.
Speaker 2:There's always a little bit of office keeping that needs to be done where it's like okay, we need to fix this, we need to work on that, and sometimes working on problems can be painful because people don't distinguish between like it in the godfather, this is not personal, this is business, you know it's. You know they'll say, okay, I'm bad at this. They'll say I'm bad, you know, and they'll take it personally. So if they're starting from the cushion of like I do this well, I do this well, I do this well, I do this well, but I need to work on that, I think it's a much softer blow. So, like I say, you have to read the personality type because you know, with some young people they're usually a little and they'll just fall to pieces, you know. So you have to make sure and there's no reason for that, you know you have to make sure that they're aware of what their strengths are before you maybe start looking at the weaknesses Otherwise, because they're already looking at the weaknesses. They never look at the strengths.
Speaker 2:Who does? Who walks into a practice room and says I'm great at these, list of things, right, because it's problem, you know, you're troubleshooting, fix this, this, this, this, this. And then they go into a room. So a student goes into a room and says I can't do this, this, this, this and this. And then they're going to see a teacher and the teacher says yeah, you forgot about this, this and this as well, you know. So it's really, you know. And without the feeling of positivity, without someone going into a room feeling great, I'm going to practice, you're never going to achieve anything.
Speaker 1:So Every now and then you have the rare student who does think they're like, everything's great and they don't want to think about that.
Speaker 2:They're the difficult ones, yeah, actually. Well, I think you experience that in America more than we do in Europe. We like sunshine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think European teachers do tend to keep people's feet on the ground a little bit too much, and in America it goes too much in the you are a beautiful, unique individual who's about to change the world, and it's very painful, I see, for a lot of American people when they hit 30, 35 and realize that that ain't gonna happen Because not everybody can you know. That doesn't mean to say they're not an amazing person trying to be the best person they can possibly be, and that we've always gotta grow and we've always gotta learn and you're gonna make your way and have a happy life. That's the goal, isn't it? Oh yeah, you might like this one, but most people don't. There you go. That's a nice one, and this one that means I'm a chevalier in France for wine.
Speaker 1:There you go. Wow, see, I came too early in the day.
Speaker 2:There you go, we'll show you down there if you like, and that's my only hi-fi system, but it is a good one, it's a name, they're really it's like 480 watts. You can't have it even halfway. It's amazing. So all this stuff, so the furniture, all this furniture stuff was made by my dad, really, and these drawings like this here, all done by my dad. He changed his career every 10 years. He was the same as me. He made all this stuff in his retirement.
Speaker 2:I remember, I'm sure, my wife you know who's wonderful. I remember one of the most painful things, and she's American. She was first drumming in the Boulder Symphony when she was really young, 18, 19, something like that, I think. She said, realizing that I wasn't going to change the world was one of the most painful things.
Speaker 2:Because in America you're all raised to believe you can change the world, which, on the one hand, you, because in America you're all raised to believe you can change the world which, on the one hand, you always see why. What a wonderful thing to bring a kid up believing but there's no mechanism in place when you realize that 300 million people can't all be the best you know and so. So I think I've had that with american students when I've used the word no and they've looked at me like I'm the first person who's used the word no. You know so, and I think I think, with students, with me, once they realize that it's not top down, there's eye to eye and that we are both involved in the same project wow, that it's our project, that every student who comes in and I don't know how much longer I can do this because it's breaking me, it's exhausting me- really is.
Speaker 2:It's our project.
Speaker 1:Their success is on my shoulders you put all that on your shoulders yeah.
Speaker 2:So if I take somebody into my class, they know I believe they can fulfill those dreams. When someone says you want to study with me, I would say what are your dreams? And sometimes I'll say I can't do that for you. I'm sorry I can't be your teacher, but I always believe I was believing everybody.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the old student who doesn't win a job, it's, it hurts you know, but at what point can you I mean you can't do it for them?
Speaker 2:no, no, but I I always have a reality check. I always say, look, you've told me this is where you want to go, this is where you are, this is the path, and it's your choice as to whether you take that path or not. But I'm lucky, I get good students, so most of them.
Speaker 1:They have the right, they have the want to already.
Speaker 2:I mean, I occasionally I don't very often do masterclasses, but occasionally I'll go into another institution and do something and I think wow. So this is like normal teaching, because the teaching that I do, that Stefan Schulz does, that Jonas Bieland does, the students are amazing. I mean, you know, and then in other classes you get some amazing, but it's just, I'm spoiled.
Speaker 1:I mean, but you have to allow, allow your, because I struggle with that. Um, it's a certain level of vulnerability. You have to allow to invest in a student that much where it's going to hurt that much if they're not successful, whereas you can have the approach of like, okay, I'm a guide, a guide, you know, I'm here, I'm going to tell you everything I know, but it's up to I mean, it's up to you, because it's just being able to control the success is impossible. So, but I guess you have to make that leap right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I have a person in front of me Not a student and not a trombone player and if I get that person in the right place in their head, everything else will happen. And that's what I'm seeing. It's not about instructing someone as to how to operate the trombone. That's actually quite easy. But for them to be successful they have to be in the right place and sometimes it's more difficult than in others. But you know, if you went to see a lawyer, you're paying them an awful lot of money to act on your best interests all of the time. And that's how I see myself.
Speaker 2:I'm not there to be their friend, although many of my former students are very close friends, that's not my primary role. I'm there to be their advocate. I'm there to represent them and their best interests all of the time. And if that involves being tough with them, every now and then that happens, but very rarely, you know, very rarely. The toughest I will ever get with a student is and with me. When it gets tough, my voice goes quiet and I don't swear.
Speaker 1:That's more. I think that's more powerful when you know someone that cares about you is disappointed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I'm mildly grumpy, I swear and shout. You know when it's like you know I'll say, look, could you do this, do this and do this? And then I'll say I now know you didn't do what I asked you to do last week. But what? What? No, but no, you didn't, because that's exactly what I asked you to do last week and you just got a lot better in 10 minutes. So that tells me that you weren't doing it last week. And that's about as tough as I ever get. It's like you're gonna do what I ask or not. You can say no, you can say you don't want to Because, but you have to be able to back it up If you think I don't think this is gonna work for you like.
Speaker 1:I would really love to not have to have this conversation again. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they usually then feel a bit embarrassed because it's like you know, if what I'd asked you to do wasn't working, then you wouldn't have got better. Well, you've just gone like that in 10 minutes, so it is working. You just haven't done it.
Speaker 1:Can you talk a little bit about? I think a lot of people in America might not understand the you see a common career trajectory in Europe of you know you perform, and it's very prestigious to get a professor, a teaching position later on, maybe after you perform or maybe sometimes during. In America you could be, you know, doing it when you're very young, right, and that's what brought you here the Hochschule.
Speaker 2:Hochschule der Kunst in Bern. Yeah, and I think a lot of it's a personal thing. I never wanted to teach as a side hustle. I always felt that if someone was going to travel halfway around the world to put their future in my hands, I had to be there for them, and so it was very important for me to move to wherever that was going to be beat Eastman, which was a possibility. Or moving back to London or Viennaman, which was a possibility. Or moving back to London or Vienna, which was a possibility, or here. So we moved here and if I showed you my schedule, I wish like teach Monday, tuesday, wednesday, fly to Chicago next week. Teach Thursday, friday, saturday next week, teach the week after. Go to Japan Wednesday to Wednesday. You know, I make that commitment, I think.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing about being a teacher is being there for the student, and I don't mean literally, just physically, but they know that you're in it with them. And one of the first signs of that is to say right, because I think. I think I'm the only, if you like, top trombone player in the world who does that, who says I'm playing concertos with orchestras, I'm conducting professional orchestra brass sections, you know'm designing instruments, whatever, but I'm gonna be here for you. I don't, you know. I don't think there are any others who do that you know like.
Speaker 1:But how do you? So you prioritize time, so do you have like a set rule where, like, I'm never going to be gone longer than two weeks in a row, kind of thing like so you get away for two weeks in?
Speaker 2:a row kind of thing Like. So you get the consistency. I'm away for two weeks in this semester and that's the second time in 12 years. So or I have been away for two weeks where I'll teach Monday, tuesday, wednesday, fly Thursday, miss the next week and then teach the back end of the following week. So that means I'm only missing theoretically one week. But the semester starts middle of September. I start teaching next week, that's end of August. So I will have done two weeks teaching before the semester starts.
Speaker 1:Oh, you get started early.
Speaker 2:And I spread it. You know a lot of these students. They're kind of like professional level people. They come and go and I'll teach through the semester break. I'll do two weeks in the semester break and I'll teach through the semester break. I'll do two weeks in the semester break and I'll continue after the semester's finished in the summer. And the deal for them is they don't go three months without seeing me in the summer. Wow, and they get.
Speaker 2:So we never have, oh, we've. I mean occasionally I get a situation where it's like I'll teach one person on a Thursday and then see them again the next Tuesday. It's like, well, well, you didn't have much time to work on what you know. So, um, apart from one student, I have at the moment a Japanese young lady who is, I have to tell you, a nice story. It's like I never expected her to be that good. I never expected her to explode like that. She's been with me one year. That's the best. I never realized she was that smart. I think that's the thing it's like. On a Thursday, you say could you take a look at the Tomasi for Tuesday? And so it's like Tuesday said did you look at the Tomasi? She said, yeah, I've learned it and she hadn't looked at it before. I said so we could do any of. Yeah, I've learnt it first year, you know. So sometimes that happens.
Speaker 2:But but in America you've got so many institutions, I mean there aren't enough orchestras to fill all of the teaching jobs, right? So and also, if you are in one of the top American orchestras, you've probably negotiated a salary that is way in excess of whatever any university could play, whereas here it tends to be a little bit the other way around. If you're in a middle of the road, as it were German orchestra it's a good orchestra you're probably gonna get paid more to teach. Downstairs is a bit of a mess because we're literally just finishing the recording studio. So I built this practice cube here, so if I want to practice at 3 o'clock in the morning, nobody hears anything. You even have a little window in there. Yeah, have a look in there. No way. So and that's my wife's greenhouse back, I can go in there. I love it, but you don't hear anything. You know the kids. After I built it, the kids kept saying where's dad?
Speaker 1:You know, it's really cool, that's very cool okay, just for you know, for for some people that may not be as familiar with the trajectory of your career. Um, and we could do like many cliff's notes, but I mean that's always difficult. But you know, you grew up in the british brass band, which I've always been fascinated with, and I've played with a brass band in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 2:Oh River City, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Nice oh you played for Jim then huh, yes, yes, yes, yes, he's one of the best tuba players I ever heard.
Speaker 2:He's an incredible musician. He's incredible.
Speaker 1:He's amazing, incredible, incredible musician and I've learned a lot from him. He's been tough on me, but I've learned a lot from him. Um, and I think personally I've said this before I think that's the I've seen young musician, brass players go through a youth brass band kind of situation and young players go like through a youth orchestra and the level of playing is so because you're, you're playing the whole time, the level, endurance, the level of understanding, phrasing chamber music, um playing solos, um melody which you don't as a young trombonist.
Speaker 1:It's night and day and it's like do you, do you think back about how that started your foundation?
Speaker 2:very often, I guess when I was a kid you were either going to play cricket or play in a brass band. You know that's because it was the northern industrial, probably like Pittsburgh actually a northern industrial, probably like Pittsburgh actually and every village had a brass band and every factory had a brass band and it was like paid recreation for the workers when they were being treated like shit to work in horrible conditions. The company at least provided a brass band, a male voice choir, maybe, a football team and a cricket team and they had their own social club, you know. So the brass band would play in the pub the whole time and they had free instruments. They didn't have much else but they had free instruments. So that was that kind of died out. It wasn't as bad as that when I was a kid, but that was the heritage of it and so I started playing. When I was seven, my dad and my uncle were cornet players.
Speaker 1:They got your embouchure set up basically, or did they just hand you something?
Speaker 2:They just handed me something and it kind of worked. But it's like my son he's 11, and you just give him a trombone and his embouchure's exactly the same as mine. Really, he's identical. He sounds the same. He is exactly the same as mine. Really, he's identical. He sounds the same. He walks onto the stage like I do. My father-in-law is a very famous musician and so they're sort of like, if you look at the breeding that's going down into him, musically, I think my son is better than I am.
Speaker 1:That's what you hope for, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've never had to talk to him about music, wow, ever.
Speaker 1:It's kind of that dynamic's difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 2:No, no, he's kind of no, because I think he realizes that I'm good and that I care. And it's now reaching the stage like he has such a smart question. I said this bit in this Rachmaninoff song can you hear the crying? He said how do I express that 11-year-old kid, how do I express that? I said well, you've got to feel the emotion. I said do you know what it's like to feel desperate? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know kids. And he's like lost your balloon or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know my ice cream fell on the floor, so we and play it, and he did it and I just I nearly cried oh my god, wow, to watch a kid discover that you know.
Speaker 1:and you say yeah, that that's how you do it. Well, I mean we we can laugh like they that an 11 year old hasn't like gone through life's intense ups and downs that we have in a fuller life, but in a way they don't. They have like less layers where they can tap into those emotions a little more quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, particularly this generation of kids and this is a podcast in itself we're trying to protect our children from hardship and that's not part of the human disposition. We have to learn to deal with the extremes and I don't think we're doing our children a service by trying to make life too comfortable for them. So, because you don't have that repertoire the human disposition of everything from desperation to absolute elation we finish up just being all in the middle band if we're not careful, you know, and we don't. We try. In many ways kids get protected from the extremes, and who, as a parent, would not want to protect their kid from one of those extremes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no highs, no lows.
Speaker 2:But if you don't know how to deal with hardship, then you don't know how you later on in life to fight your way through the tough times when they do come. Um, I was raised in now what would unquestionably be called poverty. Um, there were a couple of years where my mom cried at the lack of christmas presents or whatever. And you know it was. You had one set of clothes, one for school, one for free time. Such was it, such clothes. We went on holiday once a year, an hour's drive from where we lived, if we were lucky. Some years we didn't.
Speaker 2:And my dad, when he bought my first trombone, he was a teacher and he had to drive a forklift truck on the weekends to save up the money for my first pop of trombone. So you knew what it had cost in time and you knew he cared, and you know he'd given up his weekends and you know you didn't drop that bloody thing, you know, because there wasn't another one coming. You know, and I think that was the kind of upbringing that I had and I would not wish that on my kids, but somehow you've got to teach them the value of things and teach them that it's important to strive.
Speaker 1:So what positive can you take from that upbringing? Just the valuing you want to get out of this Work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to do it, you want to make it Work. I believe that if you and this is partly the American dream as well if you want to be the best, you've got to work hard and be better than everyone else, and we need to be careful that we don't get into. If you want to be better than everyone else, pull the others around you down. That's not a good way of doing it. Work, strive, go for it. You know it's great and that's. I'm seeing that now starting, I think, with my son. He's starting to, because, I mean, our kids have got a tough life. They speak English at home. They're mother tongue German, swiss, german and French, and they're 9 and 11. And so he's having. When he's doing science, he's doing it in his second or third language.
Speaker 1:You know it's tough Like Dad.
Speaker 2:help with my homework, yeah yeah, yeah you know, I mean my german's good johanna's germany's mother tongue, but her daddy's german um I know what I I know I know how to ask uh where the bathroom is yeah, there you go. That's another one of our great leaders flying around the world to save us. Um, okay, let's take a break and show you where the bathroom is.
Speaker 1:Good, okay, oh no, no, I don't need to go, I was just saying.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought you were doing. Let's sit down, there we go. I thought you needed to know how to answer In.
Speaker 1:German, of course Sorry. I said, wo ist die Toilette. I said, wo ist?
Speaker 2:The restroom is. If anything was going to be edited, there we go. I'm good, yeah, we'll leave that in, but also learning a different language. It changes the way you think. In this day, you learn things from a different perspective.
Speaker 1:And in German, for example, they have so many words to describe things that we don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and they're very good at sort of putting lots of words together.
Speaker 1:You know I've noticed that's the word for you know. Yeah, okay, so, okay. So, walking through a little bit brass band system, you know, showed a very early aptitude. I imagine it was a blend of talent and a blend of, you know, probably a strong work ethic from a young age yeah, I don't know where this drive comes from, but I heard star wars the first.
Speaker 2:What episode four. It would have been on the radio one Saturday morning when I was about 11, 12, I don't know something like that, and it was like that's. It changed my life forever. I want to be first trombone in the London Symphony.
Speaker 1:Oh, you had a very clear goal.
Speaker 2:In, like northern industrial England, you know, and I had a dad who said, bob, fine, yeah, you do that. Then Good. And then two years later the London Symphony ran their music scholarship, which for kids between the age of 14 and 28 or whatever, and it's like so I get through the first round, I get through the second round. That second round I got to meet John Fletcher, the tuba player, and Bill Lang, the trumpet player. It's like my tuba player and Bill Lang, the trumpet player. It's like my dad's saying wow. And then semifinal in Manchester and Eric Crease was there, dennis Wick was there, and it's like I won the semifinal. It's like my dad says you're gonna play a concerto with the London Symphony. I was 15, like little school kid in the north of England. What did you play? Gordon Jacob and the Hindemith with Peter Donahoe on piano.
Speaker 1:You played at the right tempo that first time I don't remember. Find a pianist that can.
Speaker 2:Peter Donahoe at the time was a freelance percussionist trying to make it as a piano soloist and he's amazing. I mean he's a big time soloist now and he played the hymn and my dad thought it was too loud, so he went to the set and said too loud, okay, did it again. It's too loud. My dad, being a good northerner, walked up just closed the lid.
Speaker 2:So I did this and he was like, two weeks later we were sitting at home and BBC Radio 4 listening to that on a Sunday morning and last night in Moscow the British pianist Peter Donohoe won the Tchaikovsky competition. My dad just like, oh God, he put the lid down on this guy and anyway, so I won the London Symphony. And my dad just kept saying I think as a parent I don't think he knew he just said someone's looking after you, because I won the competition when I was 15.
Speaker 1:That's when he realized OK, I have this kid.
Speaker 2:Then it was like Dennis is going to retire at some point. I was 15, and there was a couple of them kind of went Wow, dabbed him. It was fifth when I was, and that's so. I went to the Hallé again. I took the first trombone audition in the Hallé Orchestra when I was 18. 18.
Speaker 2:And I took the excerpts. I'd never done any of the excerpts, I didn't know them, took them to Peter Gain to teach me and he said no, no, no, I won't. I said why? He said you're 18, you're supposed to be doing this La Fosse etude. And I said yeah, but I want to do the audition. And he said don't do the audition. And I said why? And he said because you're going to win it. Wow. And he said it's not what Dennis and I want for you. We want you to go and study in Paris with Michel Becket or in Lyon with Michel Becket and then go to New York. And we want you to be kind of like the Christian Lindbergh.
Speaker 2:And I was very ambitious but short-sighted. I wanted a house, yeah, and a car and a job. So I went against him. I took the Hallé orchestra audition and I won it.
Speaker 2:And then but I was always watching what was happening with the London Symphony and so, yeah, that that's kind of how it went that way. And then when I went to Vienna, someone said to me he said you may be the first person who's used the first trombone job in the London Symphony Orchestra as just another step on the ladder. You know, and I never looked at it that way, but you know, so I think the ambition grew when I left the London Symphony twice the Los Angeles Philharmonic were quite, you know, made quite positive advances, and I was kind of quite keen saying, like London Symphony, vienna Philharmonic and then one of the top American orchestras, just from the experience point of view, and it was Johanna, who's American, you know saying you know, no, I don't think so. So that's why we finished up coming here. So that's a very potted history.
Speaker 2:So I've always wanted to like, do lots of different things. You know, I'm always obsessed with different things collecting wine, getting interested in wine A lot of my good friends are winemakers and, you know, gardening normally was self-sufficient for vegetables, but I've spent too much time in the Alps this year. Very nice, this is, by the way, this is the Valhalla for mice. My son has a lot of mice, and when one unfortunately leaves this mortal coil, that's where they go. So that's where Cubal Sniff and what's the other one called Sniff Sniff.
Speaker 2:They're down there, they're with us now. They're lovely pets, they're really beautiful pets, and we have two large Maine Coon cats that might make an appearance at some point, and we'll walk through the house a little bit at some point yeah bit at some point.
Speaker 2:That's the part I'm interested in. I'm interested, I'm an interested person. I'm interested in people. It's I'm an obsessive personality. I'm obsessed with teaching, I'm obsessed with playing, I'm obsessed with everything that I do. And in here is the recording studio, which we've just finished, so we still got all the work tools out. So this is where we're going to be properly recording, nice and dry in here, and it's all found insulated. Still got to do the ceiling.
Speaker 1:So we've got that there. What's the the rim is?
Speaker 2:Ah plastic sticker. It's really dirty. I won't show it to you folks. It's a yeah Cool.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 2:And if you want to see the wine Nice array of. I've never done. You know it's like. Now we've got this chalet in the Alps. I never expected age 60 to become a forester, you know. So I'm working with a chainsaw tomorrow.
Speaker 1:That's therapeutic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know. So I got a forester in to give me a three hour lesson on. You know it's like, and all the researching, the equipment and everything, and you know, so you don't chop your head off you have a cool like forester hat that you wear.
Speaker 1:I've got.
Speaker 2:I've got the cut proof shoes, trousers, the helmet the mask um, you can put that photo on if you like.
Speaker 1:Yeah sure do that stuff. Yeah, yeah, you like. Yeah, sure I do that stuff. Yeah, you know, honestly, that would have been a good podcast if we just go out there and you give me a lesson on chopping down stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, I wanted to do this newsletter thing that I put out. I wanted to do a video with me Subscribe to the newsletter. Yeah, there you go. Subscribe to the newsletter. You know, if you're sort of cutting a tree in the forest, you know I'm sort of saying you know you need to follow a very strict basic technique on the chainsaw. If you don't, the consequences are serious. Unfortunately, it's not the same on the trombone, which is why you have to go for lessons, because if you've got your basic technique right early on, you wouldn't need it, okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we don't have to like spend forever on every part of the career, but it's so interesting and you know, like you had briefly hinted at before, you didn't have a lot of major teachers because you, from what I read, you were in Royal Academy for like a few weeks and then you got Guildhall, guildhall for like 10 weeks or something like that, and then you moved on to Hallé. Which kind of was your early education? I guess on the job.
Speaker 2:I made my mistakes there, personally and playing-wise. And when I did go that's what Peter said he said, OK, go up there for a few years and just make your mistakes, and so I know what it's like to take a good breath, let it go and yodel something. You know it's like I did it live, so it's like, okay, that doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that doesn't work. And also with interaction with colleagues. When I went there they were kind of like deeply suspicious of me because I didn't drink. Because it's like morning break they'd all go to the pub for a pint and it's like if I drink a pint of beer now, I can't play yeah and I didn't yeah, and I didn't drink before concerts.
Speaker 2:I drunk after the concerts, but not before, and they were like what's with this guy? He's not you know it's like, but they got used to. I think they saw me drinking after the concerts and realized okay, no he's okay, he's, he's okay, he's okay.
Speaker 1:And then London was 11 years in London, 12. 12 years.
Speaker 2:My life works on 12-year cycles.
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, studying your bio I kind of noticed that.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize. But that's the Ayurvedic Indian, sort of like people who are apparently on a spiritual path. They're going to different phases every 12 years and I didn't know. Johanna pointed it out to me because she gets up every morning and does two hours of yoga and meditation. She said look at this, you've done the 12 year thing. So every 12 years I changed my job, my wife and my country.
Speaker 1:Don't say that part out loud.
Speaker 2:It's true, it just seemed to be 12 years, 12 years, and we've gone over 12 years now and we're really happy, so that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And that's something I resonate with you on. As far as you know, I like doing a lot of different things. I've always enjoyed that and of course, as a musician you want to find some level of stability and I find stability by doing a lot of different things. But, like you know, that's the. You fight against that and finding the perfect balance. Like you get this job. That's a big principal trombone in the London Symphony is a big responsibility, that's a big time commitment. But you also like have this inner thing to do a lot of different things. But you also have this inner thing to do a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:I think when I was in the London Symphony, I think the brass section was that good that we were just high on being together, to be honest.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful.
Speaker 2:It was just and you could fight one day and have a coffee the next day. The working relationships were just amazing. Those films that we did in the 90s and you know a lot of the recordings we made that many recordings. I've never really listened to them, but I go back occasionally and think, oh yeah, I played on that and you listen and you think wow.
Speaker 1:You ever like watching a movie and you're like that sounds.
Speaker 2:That did happen. Cape Fear was one.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a big one.
Speaker 2:It was like oh animals, what are they? And they were just like oh, boots, and so we were just really high on partying, playing too loud, sorry what age were you during that London years? 22, 23 when I started Did 12 years, 22, 35. Michael Tilson Thomas was the music director, which was the happiest time I've ever had in an orchestra.
Speaker 1:So a young man that grew up with meager beginnings and you're in one of the greatest cities in the world. In your early 20s, having an awesome job like that, could be very easy to be distracted in the wrong ways, but that had to be so fun.
Speaker 2:I partied a bit too hard, yeah, um, and at the cost of my first marriage, and you live with the mistakes you make. You know, um, I was just having fun. I think think Everyone was having fun. Those days with Michael conducting were just brilliant. It's not like that there now.
Speaker 2:The atmosphere is not the same and I was still trying to learn how to play the trombone. In fact, I talked to Thomas Lubitz, who's the head of research and development for Yamaha Europe. I had a coffee with him. I still have lots of friends in Yamaha, even though I'm involved with a different company. It's nice to still have the personal side of things. I'm very close to the Getzen family, Brett and Adam. It's fantastic. But I talked to Thomas and he said I think that trombone that we made in the 90s was a good one. And I said and I think it was too. I said but the problem was I didn't know myself, I couldn't work out what was me and what was the instrument. And he said but you were first trombone in the London Symphony. And I said, yeah, but that doesn't mean to say that I understood how I played and I didn't, you know.
Speaker 1:With the. Oh, there's the giant cat you were telling me about. You have a tiger near your pool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's Kenzo. He's a smart Kenzo. Hey little fella. Yeah, monty's even bigger than that.
Speaker 1:Did you have trouble balancing this youthful like first time being a professional and maybe, as you said, partying a bit too much? The whole orchestra was the whole orchestra, I'm sure that sounds like a blast.
Speaker 2:It was like being in a heavy metal band. It was just like a moving party, were you?
Speaker 1:able to keep your was it a work hard, play hard situation? Like you still kept your level.
Speaker 2:Oh, that was still the most important thing. You know, it's like you would. Yeah, no, it never reached the point where it would spill over to the next day's concert or whatever. No, no, no, no. It was because the main thing was it was like we had an atmosphere of we just went for everything. I mean, it was led by Maurice Murphy, the first trumpet player, and he was just like oh, wow, some of the like seems, frankly, too loud, a lot of it, but it was very, very, very bloody exciting and a lot of brass players used to fly a long way if we did the Alpine Symphony or something like that, to come and hear it, you know. So that was great Musicians in London.
Speaker 2:They don't have that much stability, employment or financial, and in order to survive they work even harder now. But back then then I remember when I first went to the London Symphony, hans Stroker, the bass trombone player in the Vienna Philharmonic, stood side stage and we did that Brahms Schoenberg piano quintet with Tilson Thomas in Salzburg at the festival, and there's a bit where the first trombone goes and Michael had realised that I could do it faster. It went pretty fast and Hans said let's go for a beer. So we went for a beer and he said when Rudy Yotel resigns from the Vienna Philharmonic, please will you come and take the audition. And I'd just joined the London Symphony. It was like all right, yeah, whatever, you know kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Nice thing to hear to hear, yeah, and then rudy was gonna retire. Hans called me and said look, rudy's gonna retire. Will you do the audition? And I can't. I don't think. So you know. Now, london, yeah, and I did a period of 60 days without a day off and my wife said this is gonna kill you. You know what about the audition in vienna? And so I sent hans a fax back in back in those days of fact, saying is it too late to apply? And he said no, it's not, I'll take this as your application kind of thing. So so that's how that happened.
Speaker 2:And I never really I'd never done an audition behind a screen and in fact I've only ever done two auditions in my life and I just sort of wanted to do the experience and I'd always fallen in love with the Vienna Philharmonic. I loved the orchestra, I loved the sound. So I thought if I'm ever gonna do an audition outside of the UK, that'd be the one. So I did, and then I won it. And the only time in my life I've ever suffered with depression. You would think it would be absolutely ill-natured. It was, and it was a bottle of champagne. Then I just crashed. I dedicated six months of practice for that audition I took a month off from the London Symphony and there was no doubt about what was going to happen in the audition.
Speaker 2:So you felt a release no, it was like all I thought about was winning the audition. I hadn't thought about whether I wanted the job. And I got home and it's like what have you done? You've got kids that live a hundred yards from me. We'd'd got separated and we bought two houses a hundred yards. Your first trombone in the London Symphony. You teach at the Royal Academy of Music. What are you doing, you know? And then it was. And then I remember talking to Hans a week later and he said Ian, are you going to turn us down? I said no, I'm not.
Speaker 1:How long did you think about it? A month, that's a no, I'm not how long did you think about it?
Speaker 3:a month, that's a big life change because travel wasn't so easy those days.
Speaker 2:I hadn't gone over to sign the contract, so it wasn't a month until I could go back and sign. I went back and I did and I thought, well, I'll give it a try. So I'd set three years, I'll do three years there and then I will buy a farm in france and become a soloist.
Speaker 1:That was going to be the deal okay and had you ever played with him like just subbing.
Speaker 2:So you, you accepted before I heard them live once or twice and of course a lot on recordings, and so he's like, well, I'll give it a go. And what I discovered is that when you leave home for three years, part of you never goes back. And I became European. I was no longer totally English in my attitude and the way I saw life and in my life expectations, so I couldn't. I've never really felt totally at home in England since then and I'm certainly not at home here. I'm not Swiss and whatever the passports may say, you know it's. And so once you've left your roots for a certain length of time, I don't think you ever really go back. Wow, and you're never really at home.
Speaker 1:But there's, I mean there's got to be part of that within you, right.
Speaker 2:That feels at home, the laughter when I go back and hang out with British brass players and I cry until I laugh every day. Yeah, yeah, that's that I really bloody miss. When I was in the London Symphony, we used to laugh until we cried every day, usually at my expense. You know, it was incredible from that point of view.
Speaker 1:So you've been quoted as saying oh dear, I'm really proud of myself for remembering, and of course I'll mess it up, but the the London Symphony taught me how to play the trombone. The Vienna Philharmonic taught me how to be a musician. It's true.
Speaker 2:My musical education was in Vienna and my brass playing education was in the London Symphony. 47 of the 50 best concerts I ever did in my life were probably in Vienna. Wow, and I think largely that's because of the quality of the string section. They are just immense, right back to the last desk of every section. They're just incredible musicians, certainly when I was there, who were committed to every single bloody note that they played. And there were old guys.
Speaker 2:When I joined the Vienna Philharmonic it was a gray bald orchestra and they had heritage going back to Metropolis and Carian and Furtwängler and all that sort of stuff and they worked so damn hard and every night they'd sit there bang. You know it's like wow, what is this? You know, just total commitment. So I'd be curious if the London Symphony's a great orchestra. Of course, no one's, don't get me wrong. It's just I think, you know, maybe even player for player, the London Symphony was better, but there was an aspect of communication. The strength is a difference between a brass section going for it and a bloody string section going for it.
Speaker 2:I nearly went back in 2016. What was it? Michael Caine says Not many people know this. They got me to go back for a month in 2016 and they did a concert performance for the last act of Goethe Demelung in Carnegie Hall and Gurdjieff was conducting. Gurdjieff said we should at least play it once. Didn't want to rehearse it because the orchestra knows it that well, and it was the first day back and the orchestra decided to play it in a rehearsal. I mean, like really play it just for fun, and I was sitting there like this, like so no one could see I was crying my eyes out. I mean, when you're in the middle of something like that and the president of the orchestra saw I could see him, he saw me. He came to the end of the rehearsal and he said "'Time to come home". You know, and I said I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1:And then I got bored and Did you have to change anything about how you played or equipment to fit that sound Equipment?
Speaker 2:no, no equipment was the same.
Speaker 1:Because you're kind of like, I see you from the outside, as there's very different ways of playing here and sometimes it can be an insular thing and sometimes they have a stereotype about players from a certain area and you're kind of this bridge between the two for some young students, I feel like, because you've experienced going in that direction.
Speaker 2:I think because I was never indoctrinated by a teacher. I think well, indoctrination's too strong. But I hear a lot of people, for example, who study with you name it and they sound like that player. I don't, you know I was. I never really I had my idols. You know I loved Dennis Wick. I first heard Dennis Wick play live with the London Symphony in 1979. Never forget it, never forget it. The most electrifying thing Changed my life. And then the next one who influenced me actually was Glenn Dodgson. I heard him play Shostakovich V with the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1989. And it was remarkable. You know he was playing on a Bach 42 with a Bach 6 1⁄2 AL mouthpiece. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And it was. He wasn't working Mm-hmm, he was just sitting. He was the only one you could hear at the back and it was a great you know. So I kind of that was.
Speaker 2:My influence was listening to other people, not being told things by somebody or to say I play like this, you play like that. I don't want my students to sound like me, I want my students to sound like them. If I'm really honest, I don't think I ever truly 100% fitted in stylistically in Vienna. The articulation and the sound you can assimilate yes, you can do that, but the musical understanding is something that I think to an extent you need to be born into. Wow, and there are a lot of sons now daughters of former members in the orchestra in Vienna and when you look at it, it's logical. They're born being immersed in that sound and that style. And when you look at it, it's logical, they're born being immersed in that sound and that style.
Speaker 2:So I would like to. One of the reasons why I would have been interested would have past tense. Being interested to go to an American orchestra would be to adapt my style to playing in a different way. So, yeah, I always find interesting. Certainly, young American players write to me and say I'm thinking of studying in Europe. Okay, well, europe is about 80 different ways of playing what exactly do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm sure I hear Americans talk about the stylistic difference between New York and Chicago. Sure, sure, multiply that by 100 over here, I mean, jacques Manger, right now is 30 minutes that way. So the stylistic changes that you're going to get throughout Europe is huge, and bless it. Long may it remain that way.
Speaker 2:I think the one thing that has disappointed me with trombone players over the years is I have spent my life learning to love different styles of playing. Whilst many of those different types of playing have tried to say that what I'm doing is wrong. I've realised that the open-mindedness is not universal and you get the cults of this type of playing or the cults of this school of playing, and we don't talk to these people and we don't work with these people because, but if you zoom out a little bit, the difference between them is not that big um, and I think that's and I'm at the far end of my career, certainly teaching wise, so it's not something that bothers me, but I do observe that and I think it's stronger in Europe than it is in America. I think in America there's much more camaraderie, and you know, I think you know, if someone from San Diego was to move to Boston and they played really well. The Boston trombone players would say, oh, come on, have a beer, let's have.
Speaker 2:We got this work for you In Europe it'd be like you know, I'm very much at a distance in Switzerland, partly of my own choosing, because I don't play in orchestras anymore, you know it's, but partly it's like this guy's not from here, you know. So I live here, but but and that tends to be more the european way I, when you leave your home country, like christian limburg, has never cut off his you know support supply. He's working where he was born and has all of his contacts. If I want someone to do me a favor or help me, I call someone up in the north of england or in someone in england, not someone around here. You know that's my me. I call someone up in the north of England or someone in England, not someone around here. That's my support. Life support system is still in England. So, yeah, that's the European landscape.
Speaker 2:I always, when someone writes and says, look, I'm thinking of studying in Europe I say right, look at this from a business point of view. What do you want to do? You want to play an orchestra? Which classes are getting students into jobs? It doesn't matter whether you like teachers or not. You know I like this person, yeah, but has his student. How many students win a job, you know? Um, so, and then do a lesson tour. I have that.
Speaker 2:I have a fantastic australian boy in my class now and uh, I'm not sure how much longer he'll be be there and he just he came over and had 14 lessons, you know, and so you can work out who do you think will. Do I mean, let's take, for example, as an American player be a great accolade to get into Joe Alessi's class, and so it'd be very easy for people to think I got into Juilliard, I've gone into Joe Alessi's class. But the point is, if you're good enough to get into that class, is that person the one who you really think can do the job for you? And students very rarely think that. So when someone comes to a lesson with me and says they want to study with me, it's like you have to be absolutely convinced that I can do this for you. Can I help you? I'm either one to fulfill your dreams, and I don't think enough students think of it that way, you know, um, so yeah, so we we.
Speaker 1:Normally we close all of our interviews with a rapid fire section. Go for it, um, and so there's just a few questions I'll throw out. So you just turned 60, am I correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Six years. Well, how's that Awful that's not a rapid fire question. Really Awful. Look at all this stuff. You just described your schedule. Tell me the average six year old's traveling all over the world and you know, yeah, it's like 30 year old, you don't know.
Speaker 2:40, 40s well, okay, 50, you don't really know. 60s like this is getting serious. This is like time's running out now. So whatever you want to do in life, you better get on with it. That one hit me really hard, um, and so I'm just determined to do what I want to do.
Speaker 2:I'm enjoying being a dad very much. We have an insane life, the quality of life, you know. Some people have a lot of. They have a run of bad luck in life and they sit down and they say why me? I have it for the other reason I sit down, and I think you know what Other people practiced hard as well, why you. And so I have a little bit of a guilty conscience, you know, on that point of view. But I've realized I have an obligation to try and be a dad for as long as I can. So I try and stay in shape, I try and stay fit, and I don't know how much longer I'll teach. I love it, I love teaching, but, like you say, doing different things, burn will kick me out in five years' time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a thing here, yeah, and there are other places that have now come and said so what are you planning on doing after you're 65? We don't kick people, but I'm enjoying my playing more than ever. I think I'm playing better than I ever have done. Um, I think the and this is I am not a salesman genuinely the equipment that kristen is making for me. I have the best instrument in my hands now that I've ever had. Awesome, I think again. I think the reason why why I like Kristen and look guys, let's leave the selling stuff out of this is what I love about him is he's the same as me. He was given a job when he was a kid that he wasn't qualified to do. You know, you know they just said okay, come and replace Gary Green on Steve Green, or he was Steve Shires, mm-hmm. Garyhorn. Steve Shires were replaced by a 22-year-old student from North Texas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so he knows he has to continue learning, so we're both learning together the whole time. Brett and Adam gets and let him do it, and there aren't many bosses that would let you do that either.
Speaker 1:I was an Edwards person for like the last 20 years. Yeah, so bosses that I'd let you do that either.
Speaker 2:So I was an Edwards person for like the last 20 years. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, and and so so I want, I'm enjoying playing with some really good brass ensembles. I'm enjoying that and I'm enjoying having fun with great players and I love my teaching. But, like I say, that's going to probably in the next five years or so. So if you want to be some of my last students, get in there quick. Okay, so that wasn't a quick fire.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't give you a quick fire. I just thought of that while asking that, and I had listened to a recent recording of yours where you, you know you're very honest on these podcasts, which I really appreciate. It's very refreshing. Like you said, it's kind of therapy. But the first question we always ask, you know, turning 16. Now advice to your 18-year-old self.
Speaker 2:Stop being an idiot. No Advice to the.
Speaker 1:You don't realize what you could achieve take this more seriously, but did making those mistakes? Was that a good learning experience? Was it a necessary thing?
Speaker 2:There's some painful ones, it's learned. Yeah, I had to learn a lot of things. If you wanna see the wine, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I forgot to ask you about wine.
Speaker 2:This is a nuclear bomb shelter, by the way, no way, yeah, wow, yeah, that's a. I need to put that on. Yes, a nuclear bomb shelter so you're prepared for everything. Yeah so this is the alright wine cellar and a few selections. All of the blockies are all full. The wine cellar and few selections. All of the boxes are all full. There you go, it's all full of stuff.
Speaker 1:What's the bottle you're most proud of? That you're not gonna open until?
Speaker 2:All of the ones, these are all my friends, so it's like more of the. I'm proud of the relationship, I'm happy with the relationship that I have with my friends. Most of these are made by people I know oh, wow, and that one that's my daughter's name, oh, wow. So yeah, there we go. So yeah, there we go. So yeah, let's go, let's go, and then we'll go that way. And that's a swimming pool pump that is running. There's the steam room over there, okay, and we're going to put a new heating system in now.
Speaker 1:And so there we go Very cool. I didn't tell you what I'm doing this afternoon. It's something you've done. I'm going to go paragliding with Justin, which I'm like half scared, half excited. I watched yours. You handled it well.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, didn't bother me at all. If you climb a ladder, that's like 10 feet, that's scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you're 6,000 feet, it's like you know it's so far away you can't even get scared, don't even think about it.
Speaker 2:But he did injure someone, so yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:I heard about that. You know. I just turned 40 recently, a year ago, 41. What would you give? What advice would you give to me At this point in my career? I'm in the middle of my career.
Speaker 2:And that's really interesting because you you asked what I would advise the 18 year old me and actually advising the 40 old is easier and Follow your artistic goals. Your musical pursuits. Don't follow the money I did. It's very difficult to see one who regrets following the money, but I think partly because I was raised without money and my hero was Dennis Wick, you know it was. I was so success in the old-school way of like, well, it's how much money you're making. And when I look at somebody like Jurgen van der Eyen, I have the, you know, immense, you know, respect for what he's doing because he's following his artistic goals. I don't think money's that important to him. He just wants to make the music that he wants to make. And so I regret not pursuing the solo aspects of things as much as I could have, as in not commissioning new pieces and pursuing Because there are two types of soloists there's the trombone festival soloist, and pursuing because there are two types of soloists.
Speaker 2:There's the trombone festival soloist who plays at the ITF and goes to universities and all trombone players know about those people. But then there are real soloists, those who do concertos with orchestras, if you can think of the trumpet players, håkon Hardenberger, people like that, you know that they do the Boston Symphony with Nelsons, you know, and they travel to all right, and I never gave it enough of a shot to have done that. I had enough conductors who were close friends and I. The key to it is commissioning new pieces and I wish I'd done that and I might have taken a financial hit for a few years, you know, but at 40, I think I could have made that happen, and so that would be. My advice to you is, if there's anything artistically because there's a reason why you took up the trombone and it certainly wasn't to make money- it's not the guitar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know. So that would be my advice to any 40-year-old is I guess I would probably finish my career thinking I could have done more, but I'm that type of person anyway. My wife and I are both the same. You know I'm impossible to insult, Absolutely. You can say any.
Speaker 1:Oh, you should have told me that at the beginning of the interview.
Speaker 2:You cannot offend me, can say any you can, really you can go for it. You cannot offend me. The only way you can get to me is tell me I didn't do my best. Oh, and my wife and I both I know that whatever happens, I must not say she didn't do it. You know, or even hint that you know, and I'm a bit the same and I think at the end of the day, I think I would probably say I could have done more. You know.
Speaker 1:Okay, a question we always close with what is something that and I'm very curious to hear your answer what is something that students the average student pursuing music should do more of that they're not doing enough of?
Speaker 2:Learn to think for themselves. Learn to think for themselves. Learn to think for themselves, learn to form your own opinions without any arrogance and, from what I can see and it's not their fault it's the way education systems are set up. Students come in thinking that a teacher's going to tell them what to do and then they'll be successful. And it's actually a process, if you want to be very successful, of learning how to think for yourself, because if you think for yourself, you're giving yourself a lesson every minute. You pick the trombone up rather than thinking is that what he or she meant? Or you know, is that what they meant when they gave me a lesson you know it's like. So I think, yeah, learning to think, learning to listen, learning to think and, I think, that big one which I already mentioned, learning to work. With that expectation of reward. If you're expecting anything out of that two hours in the practice room, forget it. You might see the rewards in five years, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think Marathon, not a sprint.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. And yeah, speaking of the marathon or the sprint, I think when you're teaching you get someone in it's like what can I do to change this person's life right now? What can I do in two weeks? And what can I do in a year? You're looking at the three different things the whole time. So what can I give them? What is the low hanging fruit here? Do this, it's a little tip, it'll make it better. And then what can I put in a bit of work to do over the next week to two weeks? And what can I do without mentioning to them around the back door that's going to change the way they think over the next one to two years and Wow, and that's you know. So that level of you know guidance and you know from a teacher. I think teachers don't always think about that.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like this goes like this and this goes like that, but they're more coaches than teachers, so yeah, Good, I love that answer.
Speaker 1:So, in closing, is there anything that we didn't talk about or didn't mention, or I didn't ask, that you would just like to say in closing? I don't know really, I talk about anything you'd like. You're so shy.
Speaker 2:Well, I kind of don't readily talk about things, but if you push me I'll go. You know, just give me the odd word or two. No, I, I don't think.
Speaker 1:So I think we covered we could cover a lot more things like we could talk about, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean you could go into instrument design and all that sort of stuff and and that I tell you what instrument design, which I've been doing for 35 years yeah, that is really the ultimate example of the more you think you know, the more you actually realize you don't know anything at all. Nothing at all.
Speaker 1:I just designed a mouthpiece, a custom mouthpiece. That came out and it's we don't talk about it, but it's just been a fascinating experience.
Speaker 2:What you think makes a difference, and actually yeah.
Speaker 1:And the maker that's making it doesn't want you to come up with technical details of like. He's like, what sound difference do you want? Not like, oh, I'm curious what happens when you do this and put this on it. You know.
Speaker 2:Oh hello, this is perfect timing. The star of the show has now arrived. This is Monty. Wow, look at that lion. He's a sweetheart. Oh my goodness, good boy, he's an absolute sweetheart. Good boy, say bye-bye. There you go, he's a good boy.
Speaker 1:Well, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your time with me and opening up your home. Lovely to meet you. It's really nice to meet you again and you know your contributions to the music world, to the trombone world. They're continuing and I hope to cross paths with you more in the future and do more things, but it's just really cool getting to hang. I've been wanting to talk to you like this for a while because I knew you'd be so insightful and thoughtful.
Speaker 2:Lovely well, thank you for what you're doing with these podcasts, because it's really bringing your. You will be bringing your own community together, you know. So that's, that's fantastic too. So, yeah, well done, awesome. Thank you very, very much. Thank you. Thank you, yeah, very great © transcript Emily Beynon.
