The Trombone Retreat
Wycliffe Gordon Live at the International Trombone Festival: From Rural Roots to Jazz Fame
If you're like us you've been blown away hearing our next guest at some point in your life. Join us for an eye-opening conversation with the legendary Wycliffe Gordon as he shares his musical journey from rural Georgia to performing with the greats like Wynton Marsalis. You’ll learn how early influences, particularly gospel music and church experiences, shaped his unique sound and expressive style. Wycliffe’s captivating stories and personal anecdotes will transport you to his formative years and beyond, offering a glimpse into the life and mind of a true jazz icon.
In this episode, host Sebastian Vera is joined by special guest co-host Hakeem Bilal(@hakeembilalmusic)! live at the 53rd International Trombone Festival in Fort Worth, Texas. We discuss the importance of musical festivals in fostering a sense of community among musicians and igniting passion in students and professionals alike. Discussing the enriching experiences and the unique energy of performing for fellow trombonists, we explore how these gatherings shape musicianship and camaraderie. More importantly though, we discuss the profound impact Whataburger has had on our lives.
Wycliffe Gordon’s narrative takes us through his early attempts at piano, his transformative college years at Florida A&M, and his significant encounters with jazz legends that propelled his career. From practicing in the rain with the Marching 100 to receiving a life-changing call from Wynton Marsalis, Wycliffe’s stories are a testament to dedication, resilience, and the power of mentorship. We wrap up by celebrating his immense contributions to the trombone community and eagerly anticipate his future performances.
Also introducing special features with Patreon: www.patreon.com/tromboneretreat
Learn more about the Trombone Retreat and upcoming festival here: linktr.ee/tromboneretreat
Hosted by Sebastian Vera - @js.vera (insta) and Nick Schwartz - @basstrombone444 (insta)
Produced and edited by Sebastian Vera
Music: Firehorse: Mvt 1 - Trot by Steven Verhelst performed live by Brian Santero, Sebastian Vera and Nick Schwartz
Thank you to our season sponsor Houghton Horns: www.houghtonhorns.com
Support the show
If you're like us you've been blown away hearing our next guest at some point in your life. Join us for an eye-opening conversation with the legendary Wycliffe Gordon as he shares his musical journey from rural Georgia to performing with the greats like Wynton Marsalis. You’ll learn how early influences, particularly gospel music and church experiences, shaped his unique sound and expressive style. Wycliffe’s captivating stories and personal anecdotes will transport you to his formative years and beyond, offering a glimpse into the life and mind of a true jazz icon.
In this episode, host Sebastian Vera is joined by special guest co-host Hakeem Bilal(@hakeembilalmusic)! live at the 53rd International Trombone Festival in Fort Worth, Texas. We discuss the importance of musical festivals in fostering a sense of community among musicians and igniting passion in students and professionals alike. Discussing the enriching experiences and the unique energy of performing for fellow trombonists, we explore how these gatherings shape musicianship and camaraderie. More importantly though, we discuss the profound impact Whataburger has had on our lives.
Wycliffe Gordon’s narrative takes us through his early attempts at piano, his transformative college years at Florida A&M, and his significant encounters with jazz legends that propelled his career. From practicing in the rain with the Marching 100 to receiving a life-changing call from Wynton Marsalis, Wycliffe’s stories are a testament to dedication, resilience, and the power of mentorship. We wrap up by celebrating his immense contributions to the trombone community and eagerly anticipate his future performances.
Also introducing special features with Patreon: www.patreon.com/tromboneretreat
Learn more about the Trombone Retreat and upcoming festival here: linktr.ee/tromboneretreat
Hosted by Sebastian Vera - @js.vera (insta) and Nick Schwartz - @basstrombone444 (insta)
Produced and edited by Sebastian Vera
Music: Firehorse: Mvt 1 - Trot by Steven Verhelst performed live by Brian Santero, Sebastian Vera and Nick Schwartz
Thank you to our season sponsor Houghton Horns: www.houghtonhorns.com
Support the show
Hello.
Speaker 2:Greetings, greetings. Thanks for coming out. Welcome to the Trombone Retreat podcast of the Third Coast Trombone Retreat. Gotta say it, we're super excited to be here. This is the 53rd International Trombone Festival and this is our fourth time being here. We've been lucky to interview live gosh, joe Alessi, christian Lindbergh, alan Kaplan, bill Reichenbach.
Speaker 1:So many names.
Speaker 2:Let's log into the computer so many names. Speaking of names, I'm joined normally by my co-host, nick Schwartz, but he's currently in a Metropolitan Opera rehearsal jail. Bradley Cooper wouldn't let him out, so in his steed I'm joined by my good friend, itf artist, member of the C-Street Brass River City, brass Beauty Slap. Professor of trombone at West Virginia University, an actual TCU alum. Let's go Frogs. Either your current best friend or your future best friend, please. Round of applause for Mr Hakeem Bilal.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody. Thank you so much, such lovely words you've said yeah that's all you'll hear.
Speaker 2:That's it All week. That's all you're here. Yeah, I've known Hakeem a long time. We play together a lot in Pittsburgh and I couldn't think of a more perfect person to hang out today. Really excited for you guys to be here today. We have an amazing guest. We have a guest that for probably most people in this room, the first time you heard him, your reaction was probably like how the what the how, yeah, probably like how, the what, the how yeah, what how's that is that?
Speaker 2:how can someone do that on a trombone? That was my train of thought. I still feel that way. So for those of you that don't know us, we are. The Trombone Retreat Podcast has been going on for gosh a couple years now. We're heard in over I think the last count was like 112 countries. It started as a passion project and it still is. We're full-time professional musicians but this has been a true joy to do and everyone that's come up this this week and said how much they enjoy it or reached out it really means a lot. So I really appreciate it. We appreciate you. Cool, so awesome to be here back in my home state of Texas.
Speaker 1:Welcome home. Thank you Also. Congratulations on the Mavericks. I have to say just a little bit of basketball talk. The Dallas Mavericks NBA finals participants.
Speaker 2:This podcast is actually a Dallas Mavericks podcast. I don't know if that was communicated in the materials. So that cool, nice yeah. So thank you to our host, karen Marston, chris Van Hoff, justin Cook, as well as Dave Begnosh. They worked tirelessly to put all this together. If you see them, they're like half awake half the time because the hours they put in, but buy them a drink. If you see them, tell them they're doing a great job. We really appreciate them. It's a tough job, really appreciate them.
Speaker 1:It's a very tough job.
Speaker 2:Give them a hug. Give them a hug. So we are very grateful to be supported by Houghton Horns. They've been supporting us for a long time. They're located in Keller, texas, not too far away On your way home. Stop by the showroom. It's an amazing place, amazing people. Stop by the booth and the exhibits. It's in the last room. My signature mouthpieces are there. We've been developing them for a couple of years. They just came out a couple of months ago, really excited about them. Tender Trumbo mouthpieces. Come try them before they sell out. Wow, cool. And I'd also like to thank our unofficial sponsor, whataburger.
Speaker 1:Yes, the honey butter chicken biscuit has really fueled us throughout to this point, and they're still good. I miss them dearly. When I come to texas and that's the first place I go after I get a beef rib.
Speaker 2:It's really supporting the hunger at 2 am. It's really important 24 hours. Yes, supported grad school. It supported everything. We really appreciate water burger for their support. Thank you, water burger. Um uh. Taquitos. Sausage, egg and cheese taquitos no honey butter chicken biscuit, one hash brown.
Speaker 2:That's enough. If you're kind of hungry, you add a hash brown, that's all you need, okay, cool. So our special guest today. We are honored to invite. We've hung out a little bit, we've been playing phone tag and we've had a lot of close calls to schedule this interview and we finally found a great venue worthy of him. Six-time winner of the Downbeat Magazine Best Trombone Poll. 15-time winner of the Jazz Journalists Association Trombonist of the Year Award 20 solo albums. One of the most important voices in the trombone and jazz world today. Please welcome Mr Wycliffe Gordon. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Mr Wycliffe Gordon, welcome, welcome. How are you doing today?
Speaker 3:Doing pretty good. Thanks for having me, Hello everyone.
Speaker 2:I heard it was a bit of an adventure getting in here.
Speaker 3:Yes, for quite a few folks, as a matter of fact, I think quite a few didn't make it. I was close to being one of those, so I got in about 1130, 1145 last night and I was scheduled to get here at 730. But due to the nice weather that we've been having Texas, yeah well I had family members who told me. They said are you sure you're going to make it? I said, well, I hope so.
Speaker 3:If I'm flying the plane, probably not, but anyway so yeah, but it was an adventure getting here and even more of an adventure after we got on the ground to get my lift to the hotel and it just started pouring down rain. I was like, oh man, I'm happy that the plane the airplane landed. Now I'm just hoping to get to the hotel, but anyway, here nonetheless for the ITF. Only would I do this, so happy to be here with you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're feeling super fresh right now super awake. Somewhat, somewhat I mean mean for a jazz musician, would you say something like at 10 am in the morning, that's basically two in the middle of the night, kind of feeling I don't know are you an early riser?
Speaker 3:I am okay bucking the trend, all right I've been sleeping until about 8 or 8 30, but normally I'm up around sleeping into 8 okay if I'm working till 4 o'clock in the morning, then I'll sleep until 10. So but I'm an early writer because I'm a jazz musician, but I'm also a professor, I teach and I still perform. So most of the time if I'm working, like today, normally I would just take a flight in the morning, but now that I've gotten a little older I don't do that anymore.
Speaker 3:I put days around. So I'm there and, just like last night, if I had anything to do last night I would have missed it. Matter of fact, I did miss dinner with Yamahata. He said when I take you to dinner at 6, I said I don't land until 730. And so we can get some drinks afterwards. Well, that don't know. 9 until 7.30. And so we can get some drinks afterwards. Well, that didn't happen either. I barely caught the bar at the height.
Speaker 3:But anyway, priorities, yeah, that's conversation for some other time, but I'm a pretty early rider.
Speaker 2:All right, all right. So how often do you come to these kind of things? Big trombone festival.
Speaker 3:I didn't come last year but I was here the year before. If I'm available and I try to get the schedule far enough in advance to where I can attend, but I did the one in Redwood City in California where, when Joe Alessi was the Grand Poobah president of the ITF, I remember doing one in Birmingham, england, which was really nice, just to go over there and see the different groups and to participate there. So I've been to about five or six of them. So unfortunately I can't make it every year.
Speaker 2:But it's a different experience, right? I mean, we're performing all the time, but it's rare we're performing for such a high concentrated trombone audience.
Speaker 3:Yes, so true. We were talking backstage about the benefit of bringing students to. Something like this is so important. I mean not just for the students but for us especially, because we don't get a chance to see one another that often. So when we get a chance to get together, it's a great time to fellowship with our fellow colleagues, to play in classical jazz, whatever they're doing, and it's just like oh it's, it's a great time to get together, and it's also great for the students not to just hear the music but to see that as well. And I remember one of my first ITFs was when they had it at Cornell.
Speaker 3:University in Ithaca and my son was 15.
Speaker 3:I'm Corey Wilcox and he that was his first trombone festival. I got him his first trombone when he was nine and he's pedaled around with it. Then, 13, he started practicing and 15, he was practicing. Then I took him to that and he was in the room and saw all of the trombones and all of the trombone players and the classical trombone players and the jazz trombone players and the competitions and for him I think it just sparked something inside of him to just want to do this and he started loving the trombone, I think around 13.
Speaker 3:And then, on the way to New York, we were driving back to New York City and I stopped to see some friends of mine in Rochester, new York, and they were playing, and Corey was with me, he had a hornet I said yeah, that's your son.
Speaker 3:I said yes. He said play trumpet. I said I haven't gone up and played blues. He could play. He had some stuff together. He checked out some of my recordings and he was throwing my stuff in my face and I said well, the only thing about those recordings, I haven't recorded everything I actually can play.
Speaker 3:So then I threw some stuff in his face and I mean and he said, dad, I'm gonna get you one day, and which was like a greatest feeling for me. I said that's what I want. But you know, having see that happen in my, my own son and for other students that I've gotten the chance to witness, participate and just whether they're performing or just coming to the ITF to do this, is just another way to just reassure about our community and it strengthens it.
Speaker 1:It really does that camaraderie and that's why I think the ITF is such a unique festival in the brass world, because you have the personality of trombonists. We're the coolest people in the world.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And we all get in the same room and it's just, it's positive vibes and I think that it's. We have to cherish that and it's so nice to see that in students and for my students that are here as well you see that transformative, that immense perspective that you get from being at this festival. Have you ever brought students, other students, here?
Speaker 3:Not to the ITF but to the Midwest Clinic in Chicago, because I don't have a great large trombone studio but we do have other students that's like a wind ensemble that are not necessarily in the jazz band. So there you just like, here not just trombone, but you get the wind ensemble, you get the choir you. So we've taken students to some festivals, but I have yet to bring any to the itf and I'm not sure where it's going to be next year. But maybe I'll do that if I can get them to practice yeah, that's the ultimate question.
Speaker 2:So, like I, I'm curious just hearing you talk about that, your performing schedule. You're all over the world all the time and when you're performing for an audience at a festival like this, is there any sort of different energy in your mind? Or do you feel different when you're performing for a room full of trombonists, or is it just kind of you're always central to who you are?
Speaker 3:I don't really think about it, but in the back of my mind probably. Yes, you're conscious. They're listening for what. You have the trombone players. You have the audience. That's one thing. But when you have an audience full of musicians that play your same instrument, it's something special.
Speaker 3:But for me now, at this point in my career, I feel pretty comfortable just sharing, because I always say, like Duke Ellington would say this, make this quote he said it's better to be a number one you than a number two somebody else. So so, however you are, wherever you are, it's cool, because wherever you are now, you're on your way to either something better or you're trying to develop. But we do go through those stages where we were studying, like you know, jj Johnson. We're going to do a concert with JJ Johnson tomorrow night.
Speaker 3:It's like, ah, you have to learn that language and that repertoire. And why do we do that? Well, now you have something in your bag that you can pull from. It's like, why sit there and fish through trying to figure out what to play, and if you're improvising, I'm thinking about f minus seven equals f, a flat c and e, and then the chord scale relationship, then the position and then the range, and then I say, just sing it. And when you internalize all of those things, it's like it can just come natural to you. So, anyway, and just accept that I'll just share a quick story of why I say that.
Speaker 2:We don't have time for stories on the podcast.
Speaker 3:Well, this is not a story. This is a not story. No, I remember when I first started playing professionally at that level and to play professionally just means you get paid for it. But I started playing with Wynton and after about two or three years, on the road with him, a friend of mine from high school named Keith called me, had a tape, cassette tape. I think some of you out there know what that is, others of you may not, but he had a recording of me playing in high school and they said man, there's a tune called Dog Days. You know, I had my little solo. He played it for me on the phone and I said hey, man, I'll give you any amount of money, don't let anybody hear that. And I saw him a couple of weeks later and he gave me the tape and I listened to it and I changed my mind, or changed my perspective, because that's where I was in high school.
Speaker 3:Four or five years later I've been practicing. I'm supposed to sound better or to develop, whatever that means to you. And then I was no longer ashamed of what I sounded like, because it was me and I sounded then exactly like I sound now. I just I was able to play the trombone a little better. I learned new techniques to practice and how to practice. So I had a little bit more mastery of the instrument, but I learned to not be ashamed of where I was. So that's why I say be a number one, you. Wherever you are, you're on your way to developing your best self, and wherever you are is cool.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, that's the thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is we're celebrating individual stories. It's so easy. Especially and you see it a lot in classical too is this idea of we're all trying to be the best version of one thing instead of celebrating our individuality and our unique voice, and it's like it's a recipe for depression when you're constantly comparing yourself to other people and just trying to be better than someone else instead of, oh, what's my 100%, what's the best version of me that I can focus on. So that's a mindset it seems like you've developed over time and then like it sounds like half of that is just accepting where you are at the moment.
Speaker 3:It is. And when you walk out onto the stage, regardless of who's in the audience, if you're cool with who you are, then you just hope that people will be cool with who you are and where you are as well. I tell my audiences all the time, particularly when I'm playing in a club or venue, but even at a concert hall, halfway through the show I'm like man, we're having a good time, they're playing with my band. I said I hope. I said I hope that you all are enjoying yourselves and having a good time. And then in the jazz club they may clap and I said I don't say that because I'm looking for applause. We're having a great time. And if you find that you're sitting there and you're not having a good time, it's probably your fault. And I say that to my audiences all the time. They laugh. And I say that to my audiences all the time. They laugh. I'm just serious. So if you're going to participate.
Speaker 3:just enjoy your time, Enjoy the music.
Speaker 2:That's the only thing you can control, right? You can't control how an audience is going to react, right? All you can control is how much you're enjoying it and the energy and love you're putting into it, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, and if you're doing that, I'd say 9.9 times out of 10 it will transfer to the audience and they'll receive it yeah, as an audience member, when I see someone having fun, I have fun, and vice versa.
Speaker 1:If I see you on the stage and you look miserable, oh man yeah, and yeah, this is yeah this is something that we have to work on constantly, even at the college and university level.
Speaker 3:Just stage presence. That's the really good point. If you don't look like you're having a good time, then how can you expect? You know your audience. It's going to go out there. You're looking miserable on stage. You don't have to be smiling and chucking and jiving, but if you enjoy what you're doing, share that with folks and when they clap for you hopefully it's not because you stopped playing, but because they enjoyed what you were playing they're saying thank you and you say you're welcome. So the audience is a very important part of any performance, but particularly for me. I don't ever get on the stage and decide I'm going to play for myself or just for the musicians. People are here, so I do that in the practice room when I'm working it out. But when people are here, within the first three or four tunes I'm going to try to play something maybe from swing or something from the bebop or something from early jazz, and try to read the audience and see who's there and what they're reacting to, and that's important.
Speaker 2:How much does that get you going when you have a great audience and they're really just giving you a lot of energy back?
Speaker 3:Try to just ride that with them A couple of times. It's different. Sometimes, when you walk out on stage and you have an audience, and particularly students, like I did, it was a music educators convention somewhere in Indiana, ball State and it was. They had like 1,800, I think, music students and at that college and it may not have been Ball State- they don't have a music major. They're all majoring in physics and studying some science and be astronauts, but they are. I don't know if there's an astronaut class.
Speaker 2:I majored in astronaut.
Speaker 3:I may have majored in what's your major Astronaut, so anyway but they had in those types of vocations, even like at University of Scranton where there's no music major, and those types of vocations, even like at University of Scranton where there's no music major but students want to play music, and they had like 1,800 students in their music department and they have folks that teach music. But anyway, the point I was trying to make, they had a lot of kids there and I walked out on stage, man, and from the time that I walked on the stage and the applause is cool, but when the kids are like that rush.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I say, oh man, they're here. And I think, deep down, most people in the audience, they want for us to perform well. They're cheering for us, not just after we perform, but they want that. And I say, if you feel good when you came in, you should feel great by the time you leave. And if you feel great when you came in, you feel great by the time you leave. If you feel great when you came in, you should feel greater.
Speaker 2:That's what our job is, so we forget that sometimes, right, especially when we're performing, it's like you know, and we're all teachers and we have students that will perform, and a lot of times it feels like you're taking a test or you're about to. All those fight or flight symptoms come in and the simplest thing sometimes though it's harder to practice is like what you're saying is like everyone wants to have a good time at the end of the day, right, we're all here to have a good time and enjoy music.
Speaker 1:Yes, you rarely show up and you're like I want to have a bad time I hope this is terrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like he misses all the notes yeah all right 1967, may 29th. All right 1967,.
Speaker 3:May 29th, waynesboro, georgia. Growing up in Augusta, right, yes, most of my formative years were in Augusta. I was born in Waynesboro at age 10, and then moved to Augusta. So the proximity of Waynesboro to Augusta is 30 miles. Waynesboro is very rural. To Augusta's 30 miles, waynesboro is very rural, but when I was young we did have a dairy queen, but then where my folks were born was called Sardis and what they had was like one country stores, a lot of farmland and a lot of my people were farmers.
Speaker 3:But so Waynesboro, if you lived in Waynesboro to go to Augusta, that was like a big city. But if you lived in augusta to go to atlanta, that was like the big city. You know, if you lived in atlanta to go to new york or california, chicago or detroit I said california, but la, you know a larger city oh man, it's a big city. And if you live in new york or you travel around the world, you go, but you always come back to New York because everything that's in New York is all over anyway. But Waynesboro is just 30 minutes from Augusta. So it's a different city but it's 30 minutes away.
Speaker 2:And what's childhood like?
Speaker 3:My childhood. Oh, it was I'm country, I'm a country dude. When I joined Winsman they said man, you're country. It's like they're ribbing or something like that. But I enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:And on some weekends during the summer we'd go to my cousin's farm. We weren't old enough to do that my older cousins, they were farming, but they would let us ride on the tractor and things like that. They would let us ride on the tractor and things like that. But being there the first time, my father played and studied classical piano. He loved Beethoven, mozart, schumann, schubert and he had an upright grand piano. He had a reel-to-reel recorder with classical piano music on it and he was like a radio man in the Air Force. So he put speakers in every room so we heard classical music all the time. Practical application or performing. We heard him in church, so we heard gospel music. I didn't hear jazz until later. I think I was 13 or 14.
Speaker 3:But growing up in Waynesboro I got a chance to see my first band. Otherwise, I heard music on the radio, classical piano music at home and gospel music in church, and so in first grade they had a service band from the Army come and they played. It was like a big band. And then they played and they featured every instrument. They had a saxophone to play. It said demonstrate, and the trombone was like, or whatever he played. And the trumpet they taught us in church, that's the sound that blew down the walls of jericho piano. I heard that all my life. And then the bass. It was electric bass, oh cool. And then the drum. The drummer played. I was like, oh, eureka, that's me that's it.
Speaker 3:And that's what I wanted to play high, low, the rhythm. And I went home and just began begging my parents for a drum set. They were like absolutely not. So anyway, but that was my first experience with and I didn't even know that it was jazz. It was just because when I went to junior high school we called it stage man music.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so lucius was your father, so church organists, so gospel I mean.
Speaker 3:So you're hearing gospel even before you're getting into like serious jazz yeah, yep, gospel, but not just the music but the way that a deacon would pray in the church During the devotional service. It's almost like a song, almost like a work song. It's like man he's singing. I didn't know what that was because I wasn't studying music, but I was in that room and sometimes that's just a thing that has to happen. Maybe we can get into this later, because I run into we say classical. There's two kinds of music and two kinds of musicians the good kind and the other kind. So there's no separation. But I would. I was in the room and I tell folks all the time well, I don't do this, I'm not improvised, I say you just go into the room.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know what that sounds like, go into the room and well, I don't do this, I don't improvise, I say, just go into the room, well, I don't know what that sounds like, go into the room and well, I'll say something about that a little later. So, to answer your question, yes, I heard that. That was a sound that was in my ear. But the way that the preacher would preach and the way that he would speak and things and elements that we use in jazz like call and response, the response of readings, like from the pastor to the congregation or from the leader of a song in the choir to the choir, that's singing with them, so all of those things I grew up hearing. I didn't have musical terminology to put it with, but it was embedded and ingrained in me and we called it gospel music. And it was because we're singing about God and Jesus and it was in the church and we called it gospel music. And it was because we're singing about God and Jesus and it was in the church and we call it gospel. But it's just music, and I'll tell you why later on.
Speaker 3:For me, once I started playing jazz, it was a little difficult because if you grew up into the church folks said there's two kinds of music sacred and secular. I didn't even know those terms then, but they called it god's music and the devil's music. And they said that anything that's not gospel is the devil's music. And I'm like I say this sometimes, um, when I'm performing, because I'm like, well, if jazz is the devil's music, I was in a bit of a conundrum. I was like man, that's the devil got some good music, I don't know, and so and luckily we come to find out that's just a way of thinking or a way that people perceive things, and that's not the case, because all music is spiritual and anyway. So.
Speaker 3:But that was my, that was a large part of my upbringing and even before I started playing trombone, a large part of the palette of how I hear sound, the way that people would speak or the way that people would talk, the way they would sing, so and it was a part of my formative years. So that's what I heard. I did hear classical music and I still love it, but when I'm playing and I want to be expressive, the expressiveness of someone singing and how they would deliver a song, it was like, oh wow, that's, that's that, that's wonderful. And even before I knew what that was, I was in that room, so I love that because it's like it's, I feel, like every musician.
Speaker 2:It's that instinctual stuff that you get at the early age, before you even have words to describe what you're learning and experiencing. It's so deeply ingrained in you that really just comes out and that's like the most important thing. And we add on top of it by getting formal education, everything but nothing changes like those first experiences and that's such a beautiful experience and I'll say this just happens.
Speaker 3:I'll say, 99 percent of the time when I'm dealing with students, I don't care if they're reading, if it's they're studying classical piece, I don't even use those terms. But if we're working on literature associated with classical music, which all my trombone students have to do, you have to do the basics. There's no way around it. You can't be a great trombone player flute, oboe, lute or anything if you don't master the basics of playing instruments. So and a lot of the pedagogy deals with those things Melodious etudes, arbenz, sometimes Blasewicz, clef studies. And I say how deep do you want to go? And I said just turn the music around, every jazz band, high school or college, and you can tell when they play that they're pretty familiar with the music, particularly when they start improvising and they're looking at changes. I say stop, is your solo written out? No, I said what are you looking at the changes? I said why? And they're computing, computing. I said man, turn the stand around and they start to play. And I said don't worry about the change, play what it is that you're hearing. I can tell you played it well enough, you know that solo, so play it without looking at it and immediately. It just sounds natural, like you're having a conversation, it doesn't sound contrived, and I've done that with whole bands, big bands, before, also high school. I say, hey, you sound like you all know this music. Turn your stands around and when they have to play they're not stuck looking at the page and computing and putting the information in there, but just feeling and be able to internalize music. It's like, oh man, I forgot a couple of notes, but what did that feel like? And it's like I said so try it, get off the page sometime. I don't care if you're playing David concerto, if you're playing, whether you're playing and that's not carnival, bluebells or Scotland or whatever it is. And I said but you want to work on, take all that information that you have now trust yourself.
Speaker 3:And that came from seeing when I was playing with Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. We were doing Grieg's Pier Gantt Suite and at the end of the night our first concert was with the New York Philharmonic and you all know Joe Alessi, great trombonist, master trombonist, who delves in improvisation as well as doing and everything else Phil Smith would play. So when we play at the end of the night we may do like C jam blues. I don't hear anybody in the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra play. That's what that is, that's what we do all the time.
Speaker 3:But then when someone in the Philharmonic plays, like oh wow, they don't really get a chance to hear and see that. So when we went to Chicago and other orchestras that we played with and they would stand up and improvise, it's like, oh man, I didn't know they could do that. Now some of them probably shouldn't have. Man, I didn't know they could do that. Now some of them probably shouldn't have. And I'm not saying from the standpoint not to try, but there's just a little over eager and overzealous and it's just like and but, and that's it. You just, we just need to channel that energy.
Speaker 3:But there was, we played with Chicago Symphony Orchestra and we were playing and most of the times we were situated down in front and the orchestra was around us and we started playing and Phil Smith was playing. And then folks were playing like yeah, they're sounding great. And we were playing in Chicago and this clarinet player stood up and sounded like Artie Shaw, benny Goodman and all rolled up into one and the whole Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra did like this. It was like who that?
Speaker 3:Yeah exactly who's that? I mean he mastered the language of the classical music, that he was playing that repertoire and he's just like. I mean sydney bichette, I'm like man, who is this cat? We thought that one of our guys had gotten up and gone back there and I was like I said and, and I say it all the time, once you get the, get a conceptual way of playing it, that's just learning. And I say sing it. That's my master class. All the time I sing it first. If you sing accurately and in tune, that means that you can hear it and that you've internalized it. And anyway, I'm not going to make, I'm not going to go into that master class, but sometimes just get off the page, just turn the paper around and have fun with it. And even if you miss a note and it's so amazing when the students stop doing, when they stop doing this and then they have to I said, close your eyes if you want to but just play.
Speaker 1:It forces you to say something. You gotta say something.
Speaker 3:It's like because what you're going to say and I say this, even when I write my arrangements, particularly for piano and drums, I said, said I'm going to try to write piano parts because if I got Eric Reid or somebody in the piano or Herlin Riley playing drums, for publishing reasons I'll have to put something. But other than that I'll just leave it blank. And I learned that from Wynton. He would just get to a part in a composition. He would just put somebody's name down like Veal or Cone create something, and he his name down like ville or cone create something. And it's like and they would, he said, because you're going to create something much hipper than I can write for you to play, and sometimes you trust people to do that. But you get people that can trust themselves and just turn the page around, do it. If you practice doing it then in the practice room, then then on the bandstand it becomes nothing.
Speaker 2:Same thing. That's the challenge, right, and I imagine you've worked with classical musicians that are bewildered and really wanted to be able to do these things. But I feel like with classical musicians, it's like we're so used to rules and like I have to do this way and it has to be this way, and it's just like a completely different side of your brain sometimes and when you're just like, okay, start with singing, hear what you want to sound like, feel what you want to feel like, and not worry about perfection, and it's like it's freeing. But it's hard to let go sometimes so you're saying you just have to force it, like trying to stand around and sing instead of being limited by like, oh, I'm going to do what I'm capable of doing on my instrument. No, think about what you want to. What's the greatest scenario in my brain that I can imagine? Then figure out how to do it from your singing.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's great to have someone with you that might have a little more experience doing it than you Like. A student asked me a couple months ago, said what are you working on? A couple months ago I said what are you working on? I'm going to take a lesson with you. I'm working on sight reading. So how are you doing that? Because I just opened a book and I said start planning. I said, yeah, that's great, but do you have anybody that's checking out what you're doing to say whether or not you're planning correctly or not? Because you can work on sight reading and I know I didn't have private lessons.
Speaker 3:I didn't know the benefit of private lessons when I first started and my parents probably couldn't afford it anyway, so I developed a lot of bad habits. So with that, that first ITF in Birmingham, I did that, which started this master class that I do now called Sing it. First it had a much longer title, but I said I want a jazz trombonist to come up, someone that's comfortable playing jazz, and then a trombonist that has played no jazz. Let me show you how easy it is to improvise in less than five minutes. Now, it was just a concept. They didn't learn all the JJ Johnson solos, or Frank Rosalino or Carl Fontana Curtis Fuller. It wasn't that. But I said we're going to take like what you said use the rules. And I can see that even when folks stand up to play and you, that's good, learn the rules. Now let's break them a little bit or bend them. And so I said we'll take the tune, all the things you are simple melody, just the first eight bars, and they'll learn that. Or, the jazz trombonist knew it, the classical trombonist learned it. I said now you're going to sing it, you're going to sing it accurately and in tune. And they did that.
Speaker 3:So when I sat down to the piano so I'm gonna slow everything down I want you to play this melody and and then I want you to sing the melody and once you get them off the horn, it's like okay, now you don't. You know you don't have the fingering and ambers, you're setting the right mode of resonance, got to use your ear. And so I said that's good. So now I'm gonna give you an example and I'll play and we're going to sing something in phrases about this tempo One, two, three, four, ba, do, do, dee, ba, do, ba, da, da, do, do, do, be, dee do so. That's the melody. But I'll say now I want you to play, and then I'll stop swinging and just put like a groove on it and I just want you to sing what you hear. Because when you the first eight bars, you have seven different chord changes F minor 7, b flat minor 7, e flat 7, a flat major 7, d flat major 7, and then G seven and two bars of C seven. But you only have two different tonalities and when you're sitting there thinking about all that computing, it's like you sit down to the piano, that's all those, the first five bars, all A flat major scale.
Speaker 3:I would go over to the piano and demonstrate, but trust me, and I said now all I want you to do is just sing Now. And so the jazz trombonist well, he can play, because he had some licks, he'd work out and whatnot. And the classical trombonist was fishing. I said now put the horn down, sing, because when you're singing you don't have to think about positions, you're just using your ear. And sometimes they keep their range a little limited. But I'll say, say, go outside of the range, listen to these chord changes. And one of the great things we have nowadays that we didn't have when I was growing up is like ireal pro and all of that, even before the jamie abersol records. Y'all know records are lps. They look like this think some of you do but so you have that at your disposal now.
Speaker 3:And then at that master class I said now just sing something and just sing a simple phrase, sing a simple phrase over the first four bars. He did that. I said now sing it and then play it. And then he sang something and then he played what he sang. It wasn't written down, he wasn't thinking about chord changes and it was close enough because we all practice scales, arpeggios and things like that.
Speaker 3:But when you start to sing it then you're not so focused on what the fingering is, what the position is, what the key change is and all of that. And I said it was less than three minutes, much shorter than the time I just took to explain it. But the guy and I'm a shut up the guy was improvising I said see, that's improvisation. So if you learn, you sing the melody and then with that tune, the root movement is like a parallel motion and I said and forth and that's what I sent to all of the students. I said you know, just try it. It's no, it's just one, two, three, four whole notes, then quarter quarter, quarter, quarter quarter, a simple melody. But the whole concept and principle behind improvisation is which is where you can build. And once you start doing that, it's that simple. But it would be good to have someone to have some experience helping you along. Sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I thank you for offering to be my private jazz teacher. I appreciate that, sure, um anytime. Okay, let's get back to your life a little bit my life okay that is my life yeah, well, yeah, obviously okay. So piano was first for you.
Speaker 3:Yes, my dad tried to get us that's what we had at home in the house and he tried to get us to play piano. I was like four, five, six years old but, being a boy growing up in the country, it was hard to sit to the piano. And you hear the boys outside hey, throw the ball. I don't want to be in here, I don't want to do this play, and so my dad didn't make us.
Speaker 3:He let us go outside. We played marbles and when we in the country, when we thought that wrestling was real we could have broken our necks or anything, but yeah, so but yes, oh, I remember when I found out wrestling wasn't real, like wait, I, literally I was seven to be fair.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that was a tough day when my hero Hulk Hogan wasn't.
Speaker 3:I cried when the Dallas Cowboys lost Super Bowl XIII. Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 2:We're not here to talk about that. Dallas Cowboys. No, this is going to be a happy podcast.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:All right, sorry, and we're going to get to the 23 instruments you play. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Not at the same time.
Speaker 2:Not the same. You should practice more, then.
Speaker 3:Man, get your act together.
Speaker 2:So how did we come to trombone?
Speaker 3:Trombone. We moved to Augusta when I was 10. And then when my brother went to junior high school, when I was 10 and then when my brother went to junior high school, we had you could have up to three electives. One had to be PE, then they had wood shop, home economics and other auto shop and band. My brother chose to be in the band. He wanted to play trumpet or saxophone. All the boys or drums and most band directors I don't need any more drummers, I need.
Speaker 3:But the band directors suggested that he play trombone and my parents got him a trombone and he came home with the trombone and then I was like we're a year apart, my older brother, lucius, and so if he got something I wanted it. That could be a popsicle, a dump truck, didn't matter. Trombone was like I want one. And my mom said, well, they don't have a music program at your school and technically they didn't. But there was a man that would come by and for we had to take PE, but the second half of your PE class, if you can get an instrument, he would teach us how to play an instrument. And I said, mom did, that's this guy. He comes by the school and it's not a band class, but, and so they got me a trombone and I fell in um love with it, my first do you remember the first trombone you had?
Speaker 3:first trauma? Oh, the Bundy, of course.
Speaker 2:Bundy, bundy, of course is there another student?
Speaker 3:well, I guess everyone makes student model horns then, but Bundy was the best student model horn ever made. I don't know, but yeah, it was a Monday straight tenor horn, and so it was. That was my introduction to trombone.
Speaker 2:Was it a love at first sight kind of thing, or Absolutely not.
Speaker 3:It's a trombone. Who loves trombone? At first sight, that was a trick question Just making sure, but it was an instrument, seriously, it was an instrument that I had and so I wanted to learn to play it. I know the first note was in first position and then in second position. We learned is what I meant, you know. Third, because we mark third with the finger.
Speaker 1:The bell.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with the bell yeah, and that note being an E flat. And then next year I went to junior high school with my brother, which was the last year of junior high school, being eighth and ninth grade, and then we went to the middle school system after that. But I really loved playing and I liked to practice. It was on the horn horn and I was like, oh, that trombone, I love my trombone.
Speaker 3:I'd be playing and my mom would say hey, stop, just put it down, go do something else. And then even, and then, when I got in high school, at our junior high school spring concert we had two classes that were going to a high school, so all the high school students came and of course we were playing all the music that they played when they were at their junior high school in the stage band and the concert band. And I remember the first time I heard jazz recording. A great aunt of mine had passed and amongst the things that were bequeathed to the family was this five record collection set of jazz and it was from early jazz to modern jazz and at that time it was like sonny rollins quintet, count bassy, big band, but it started like early slave chants.
Speaker 3:I love the music from new orleans which is near and dear to me and it had some band, lewis armstrong. The song that um he they had in that compilation was Keyhole Blues, but another band playing when the Saints go marching in. So me and a buddy of mine had a bet. His name was Brian Hillman, he played trumpet. We had a solo that was 32 bars, he had 16 and I had 16. And of course at that stage they're written out and I said, well, I'm going to play part of my written solo.
Speaker 2:Then I'm gonna make up the rest of I and he said I'm gonna do the same thing.
Speaker 3:I said, okay, let's go for it, and we did our thing. That probably was not killing, but the fact that we did it and the response we got us like, oh man, that's. It was a nice feeling to try something off the page. And then that sent me on that path to learning to do that, which included, um, learning transcriptions and things like that. But, um, yeah, once I started playing trombone and by the time I got to high school I was like I was really loving it so I would practice all the time. My mom worked the graveyard shift and that, so she had to be the 11th. She's leaving home 10, 30 what was she doing?
Speaker 1:a nurse nurse yeah, was your brother still playing at this time as well?
Speaker 3:okay, it was my brother lucius. He still plays, but he's a pa. He went to the physician's assistant in the army. He didn't want to. The path for us was to go to college and get a music degree to teach. We didn't think about performing or anything like get a music education degree. And he did that. But when he, I think he went to Alcorn in Mississippi man, he in Longman Mississippi he did a student teaching and after that experience he said I'm not gonna be a music teacher, I'm gonna go in the army and do something else. Well, me, on the other hand, I really did want to do that, just to continue to play music. So, and that's where my path led me.
Speaker 3:But my band director, late Mr Harkness Butler, was great. He had me auditioning for the All-County Band, the 10th District Band, the All-State Band and even the McDonald's All-American High School Band, and I don't know if he knew that he gave me permission not to be afraid to do anything. He would always say you can do it, cliff, you can do it Cliff. So I'm like I'm going to audition for everything. So much that when even guys said, well, you can't do that on the trombone, I was like you can't do what? So I'm not practicing until I get it.
Speaker 3:I said okay you can do this on the trombone, but Mr Butler, he was great and there were five other kids in our house. So when it came time for Allstate or Georgia Music Educators Association, one parent couldn't leave the other with the other five kids home. So my band director took me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like you brought all your kids here. Yeah, man. So moving ahead florida a&m and playing in the marching band there, bam you. Can you briefly tell us about your experience there?
Speaker 3:it was fun. I was in the best shape of my life. I wanted to go there because I figured with the marching band program being so well known, I was like man, let's have a great music department and whatnot, and I'm not gonna get too deep into it, but I did learn quite a bit while I was there. I got my breathing and everything together because we had to physically be in shape, mentally be in shape and then musically be in shape. But I've been working on the musical part, like practicing scales and things like that, because when I played with the McDonald's man, there's something about when you get around musicians and people that are equal or they're playing at a higher level, it just raises your level or your awareness, which can then give you the inspiration to do so. And I was like there's 12 trombonists and they picked two students from each state in the United States. 12 trombonists. There were nine tenor trombonists, three, two apart, first, second, third and then three bass trombonists and I was number nine. I was at the bottom of the pack like everybody played better than me. I was like man, wow.
Speaker 3:And then they had the McDonald's All-American, the jazz band, and two guys from Georgia, stan Wilkinson and myself and two guys from New York, trombonists, bob Leone and Todd Lowry. We made the audition for and made the jazz band and those cats could play. I was like man and they had recordings of, like Bill Walters' fourth floor walk-up and I was like man, that's a trombone. I was like man and it was on a cassette and these cats could play. I was like man, show me those licks. And it was just, it was really hip to be and they're our peers. I'm like man. These cats have been exposed to some things and that kind of inspired me even more. But at FAMU I was in the marching band. For four years I was in the jazz.
Speaker 1:The March of 100, you mean.
Speaker 3:Yes, the March of 100.
Speaker 1:FAMU's marching band was awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you, it was. Yeah, oh, high step, well, and then the 300 steps per minute it was. It looks like they're running, but they're not. It said there's a concept that you would have to. It takes a minute to learn and someone asked that's so not.
Speaker 2:You said you were going to demonstrate for us, right?
Speaker 3:yes, I lied I did you can see if you close your eyes, we can imagine me demonstrating. I mean, I, I can, but there's a point in driving. I'd have to get to the edge of the stage because when your foot hits the ground it makes two sounds the heel of your foot, and then I have on Roka these are very great shoes, by the way. You're not going to hear, but we would have boots on and it'd be like like if you hear a horse step like, so, even that. So we called it rattling, rattling, and when you're rattling that fast, you have to be in shape. So someone asked me in an interview afterwards they said do you think that your experience at Florida A&M made you a better musician or a better player? I said, well, yes, because even though they got some bad press about things, some things that happened after I left, it was because it happened in the band. It became about the band. It was not of the band, because that's not the way that we did things.
Speaker 3:But I said yes. And I remember specifically one night we were practicing getting ready for the halftime show, you know, for the football game that weekend. My freshman year I was the freshman section leader. My sophomore year I became the section leader of the section and for me you had to be physically and mentally in shape, but you also had to play. And if we had to have the music memorized by Thursday, I told my section we have to have it memorized by Wednesday. If not, see you tonight at midnight, we're going to play until we have it memorized.
Speaker 3:But then there's those nights that we would practice and it may be raining out, and so we do the halftime show. And they said we get to the end of the show and Dr Foster said man, that's pretty good, but that's not good enough for the 100. Take it again. So it's raining. I said, all right, let's get this. And then we was like get to the end of the halftime show. Man, that was a little bit better, but still not good enough for the March of 100. And I said, yeah, but it's raining. But what that taught us is to overcome whatever obstacles are in the way. And I taught us to overcome whatever obstacles are in the way and you can still do your best. And so I turned around to the section he had 24. I said, man, let's get this now. So regardless of the rain, the puddles of mud, we had to do that show like it was sunshine out, and one of the marches we used to play was called In Storm and Sunshine and one of the marches we used to play was called In Storm and Sunshine. And so right now it's storming but we have to march as if we're marching and the sun is shining. So the band drum majors blew the whistle, we brought it on, did the whole halftime show and Doc Foster said now that's the Marching 100. Now it was raining even harder, but we're standing there at attention.
Speaker 3:And so just to give you a perspective, like a lot of the guys, if they left college because everyone wasn't music majors but everyone wanted to be in that band, so if they played in band they wanted to you had to audition to get in the band. But if some of them went to the military, I don't care which branch Army, navy, air Force, marines they said boot camp was supposed to be really difficult. But if you went through the March of 100, they said boot camp, that was a cakewalk. They need to come have boot camp, starting from pre-drill with us. So anyway, that was a way for us to say don't let the rain stop you from getting to your accomplishment, and and that just translated to a lot of different things. So I said yeah, in that respect I think that it did help me because, like getting here last night, I'm like, oh man, I don't know if I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it. And it was rain again, but it was a thunderstorm. Not if it was thunder and lightning, that's okay, I quit the band, I'm going.
Speaker 1:But it was helpful in that manner well, that says a lot, because that preparation and for those who don't know, like HBCU marching bands, when you play, like halftime is the show, like you go to the football game. It's good, but you show up for that band and that is such a tight group and like that's a high level of excellence that's instilled at you from a young age and to have that translate through your career as a performer. You mentioned that the guys you played with in All-American Band they were better than you but you had that sense of excellence from that band and how did that translate once you evolved and became a more dynamic and well-known artist?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I always just kept my eye on developing. I would learn, like even in my studies that I give to my students. Now I tell them this is by no means the path, it's just a path that I took and I continued to do that. And even after I started playing professionally with Wynton then I learned how to practice because I didn't really. I continued to do that. And even after I become started playing professionally with Wynton, then I learned how to practice because I didn't really know how to do that yeah, let's, can we talk about that?
Speaker 2:so you're talking about being the ninth player in this group and then you go to Florida A&M and then, judging by the math here, you started working with Wynton like the year after college. How do you go from the ninth guy to playing with one of the most famous jazz musicians in the world? So the next decade from just for the audience 1989 to 1995, you were playing with the Wynton Septet and then your original member of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra in 1995 to 2000. So how did your paths cross?
Speaker 3:Well, I met Wynton my sophomore year in college at Florida A&M. He came there to do a well, he didn't do a concert. This is Black History Month, February. He came to give a lecture on jazz and its role in our society and community and he came to our jazz band rehearsal and that's the first time everybody showed up for one it's like, oh, when your winter's coming?
Speaker 3:I was, but I was listening to lewis armstrong at that point and I heard a winter. I said, oh, he looked like he's cool and he played classical and jazz trumpet. I heard about him but I wasn't really checking him out. So he came to our rehearsal and the jazz band was there and our jazz band instructor had us to play for him. It was cool. Like I said, it's the first time everyone had come.
Speaker 3:Then he started talking about how Count Basie or bands would come up with tunes. A lot of Count Basie's tunes are riff based. Riff based, a four bar phrase that repeats. So he said I want the rhythm section to play a blues and every section come up with a riff. I had not practiced that before, but this is where that church thing kept coming, where I had grown up, like when the choir was singing behind the soloists, and so they played the first chorus. I, okay, I got a riff, I showed it to the other three trombone players in the section and then I harmonized it. So saxophones were still struggling trumpets, they were trying to figure that out. I just went to my church upbringing so and he let two or three more choruses go by, he stopped the band.
Speaker 3:And then I dropped a pencil or something on the floor. I reached over to pick it up. When I sat back up, the cats in the section were pointing at me and one said who came up with that riff? And they looked at me and he just came up to me yeah.
Speaker 3:So, and it was that meeting and he knew Scotty Barnhart, who's now now, who always wanted to play with Count Basie, who's now the musical director for the Count Basie Orchestra and he was playing trumpet with us there at Florida and him during that time, and so he talked to Scotty. After he left town he went to do a lecture, he played his trumpet, and this is another thing about at least our HBCU at that time that I didn't appreciate. They got the money to get Freddie Jackson to play the halftime show, but they didn't come up with the money or the budget for Wynton and his band to play and everybody wanted to hear him, Everybody wanted to hear him play. So he did a lecture that night and so I digress. But after he left he called Scotty. He said man, what's that drum on player's name? But Scotty, he said man, what's that drum on the player's name? He said Scotty told me this. He said, oh, you talking about Wycliffe. He went and said oh, what the hell kind of name is Wycliffe?
Speaker 3:And then, I told Scotty. I said, well, what the hell kind of name is, because I never heard that name before either. But anyway, long story short, he called me and Scotty gave him my number. And Scotty gave him my number. He said you practice shit. Yeah, learn this. Charlie Parker solo this and that.
Speaker 3:And, as a matter of fact, my first gig with him was in this city, in Fort Worth. It was a place here called the Caravan of Dreams and the marker's right, where I was working at Pizza Hut. And I learned that when you're in college because I heard some of y'all say something about what a burger when you're in college you work at a restaurant, you're good, and if you close you're real good because you can take food home and not be starving. So I had pizza and ramen noodles from a good part of my college living and I came here and we played Caravan of Dreams and they were working on music for their record, the Majesty of the Blues, so they didn't really play anything in the sound check. They brought me up and went and had me playing some parts, so I didn't really hear the band until that night, man, when they started playing, I was sitting in the dressing room and I was like man, if Florida A&M, if Tallahassee wasn't so far from me, I would get up and walk out of here and leave, because the level of music they were playing was like.
Speaker 3:So I was like, oh my goodness, and I knew what it was. I said but you know, and then he would call me up and play a blues or something like that and that was cool. But at the end of that week I was like between him, marcus Roberts, they gave me records to buy, two or three pages, two columns on each side, front and back of records to buy. So I started doing that and the next time he called me it was at Blues Alley that year and I started practicing. I wasn't making a whole lot of noise, but he invited me to then play on the record he was doing and he was going to ask JJ Johnson to do it. But he said do you want to play on this record?
Speaker 2:I was like yeah and that led to that I mean what's going on through your mind? I mean, did you realize how big a deal this was at the time?
Speaker 3:no, I know, I was just. I was practicing, I wasn't even thinking about, because I have students ask me all the time how do you, how do you make it? I'm like I didn't do this, I didn't do this to make it. I mean, I mean, you want to. You have those, I guess, those dreams when you're younger I'm being a popular man. I want to. You have those, I guess, those dreams when you're younger, I want to be in a popular band, I want to make a lot of money and do this and that, but for me, playing jazz and or even classical music, it was about playing the music at the highest level. And when I got in that band you talk about me being number nine out of the nine tenor trombonists I was number nine in the band. I was the lowest on the totem pole but everybody played circles around me but I was only trombonist.
Speaker 3:I'm just talking about in terms of the ability, so I had to go back and deal with basics and get all of that stuff together. I could hear it but I couldn't execute, and this is why. So you always go back. You got to master the basics. Before you can play classical trombones, sky trombone, jazz trombone, you have to learn to play the trombone. So, and that's when I got a chance playing with him, I met Joe Alessi. The first time I met great trombonist in classical and jazz and I was just like and I just kept getting at it.
Speaker 3:I'm like man, these cats can play. And then he got to where he just he would write anything. And I was like, man, it's not trombone, stuff like on four and one, I mean Val trombone maybe. But I'm like, well, he did it and it's just. I can go back to that Florida A&M thing. That's an obstacle, cause they move, you, slide that fast. Get it, it can be done, you can do it.
Speaker 2:So I mean, first of all, what an education. I mean what a, what a opportunity to absorb from some of the greatest people ever. And he obviously saw something in you maybe before you even saw it, I would guess. But like, was there any like imposter syndrome at first, and then some breakthrough moment where you're like, wow, I deserve to be here, like I can hang.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I ever said I deserve to be here, but I remember when I first started playing with him, I had my girlfriend in high school school and I was heartbroken because things didn't work out. And I was in the band and went and asked me if I wanted to play that summer. Well, this is how it happened. I did Caravan of Dreams in February or March of that year, in 1988, and then I did Blues Alley, december of 1989. And then he said because of Blues Alley, do you want to play this recording? That recording was in March, in April, and that was 1989. And then he said do you want to? What are you doing this summer? I said my scholarship doesn't cover summer school, so I won't. Yeah, we're gonna come out and play for a little bit, and yeah. So we went to New York. I didn't have a passport. Then we had to go down to Aruba and Eric Reed was filling in for Marcus Roberts at the time and wanted to.
Speaker 3:It was my fourth year in college, his freshman year, and he said he asked Wycliffe about colleges and Wycliffe said I only went to college for one year and I left and talked to Wycliffe. And I wasn't happy at that time at college and went and then asked me. He said, oh, I thought things were going good for you. I was like, well, his dad had just left VCU and went to UNO. I said I'm thinking about transferring because I want to go and study with someone where I can.
Speaker 3:I had fun at FAMU but I want to go where the jazz is. And he said do you want to stay out here and play for a while? And I thought about it for rest of the year and it led into my career as an educator, composer, arranging everything that I did because being around that level of musicians then I began to get exposed to that level of composers, arrangers, publishers and I was like I saw the world of music a different way and I try to share that with all of my students because it's there, it's in front of you, it's like everything you see here. You got publishers, you have people to make horns. I heard you say you got doing mouthpieces and I mean so entrepreneurship, so everything's there. I was so glad that world opened up to me and I just tell people I'm thankful daily that I'm a musician, all open up to me and I just tell people I'm thankful daily that I'm a musician. I do what I love to do. People say you get tired, you're gonna retire.
Speaker 2:I said no, I said I'll stop playing when I can't play anymore, but this I love doing it so we have a hard out in about five minutes and so we always close with a rapid fire section. So just a couple questions. We ask every guest at the end, so I'll just throw a couple quick ones. We always start with what advice would you give to your 18 year old self?
Speaker 3:not to get married right away. That's um funny. My 18 year old self I mean my 18 year old self I love to practice and I see that sometimes not in all students, but it's in the world that we live in now, where we get information really fast. You need to know something. It's on your phone when, when we were in school, you had to either go to the library at your school or the library in town. So how we process things.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I would just say I would take my time and not because I have family and children, but I would take my time to do that. Don't do that so fast.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's a tough question, but if you had to pick one recording, what's the recording you're most proud of?
Speaker 3:My recordings Mm-hmm. Hmm, I'd say the soundtrack to what's called Within these Gates of Mine yeah, within these Gates of Mine, and it's difficult. You can listen to the CD, but it's actually a soundtrack for a silent movie. It's the second one I did by Oscar Michaud and it's a big band playing live with the recording. So if you can watch it with the images, and it's a big band playing live with the recording, so if you can watch it with the images, it's that much more powerful. But I played on every kind of music that I heard growing up. It was gospel jazz, a little bit of classical vocalist. I used the band as much as I could as an orchestra, but I'd say that one Awesome.
Speaker 1:I've got one here. What's one that you see current students, what's something that you see current students doing that you'd like to see more of?
Speaker 3:What do I see them doing?
Speaker 1:Or not doing that. You'd like to see more of.
Speaker 3:Well, current students I think about my students, but then students that were at Juilliard are a little different than students that were at Manhattan School or at Augusta University. But preparing and respecting the process of developing, like I said earlier, we get information fast. And I remember a student when I was teaching at Michigan State. He was majoring in physics, he was a music major and something else and engineering, and I'm like there's three big majors. I said man, and then he was a trombone student and he said I like the melody and the tuning and the arborism. But he said I want to play like you. What's the shortcut? I said the shortcut is the straightest line between where you stand in a practice room. There is no shortcut. You may be able to get information fast, you may be able to access information fast, but your ability to develop you still got to do that the old-fashioned way and that's the best part of that. So I wish I could see the students respect that part of the process and their development.
Speaker 2:Cool, it's deep, just two more. Two more Dream dinner guests, but made up of only jazz trombonists, living or dead.
Speaker 3:Jazz trombonists in my day.
Speaker 2:Alive or dead. If you could sit down and have dinner with any jazz trombonist ever.
Speaker 3:Well, all of them, I'll say this I mean, you know JJ, but Jack Teagarden, who I love, I didn't get a chance to meet him. But you know Carl Fontana, frank Rosalino, curtis, fuller, who I got a chance to meet. I got a chance to meet JJ and talk with him. And, meeting JJ, I said I was not going to do what I heard most trombone players do Ask him about how he articulates this. I'm not going to do it. But we were in Switzerland, bern, switzerland. Our hotel room weren't ready, so JJ and I went on a walk and we're talking and I made it down there and then, coming back, I'm like JJ, how do you talk so clean? How do you? And he said, well, so Wycliffe, I just do it. I said, damn it, he's not gonna tell you.
Speaker 2:He's not gonna tell anybody.
Speaker 3:So, but yeah, and just all the trombones. I I play other instruments and I mean this when I say this. I think the trombone has the widest range of voices in jazz and classical music, but I've spent most of my time playing jazz. So when I started thinking about schools of jazz trombone, the schools of jazz trombone, plunger players, trumpet players and saxophone players they're more popular, but the trombone has the widest range of voices, so that and I've studied quite a bit of the difference between Al Gray and Tricky, sam Natten or Booty Wood or somebody like Tyree Glenn, who's a great vibrator I mean their contributions. So at Louis Armstrong, I would definitely have to have.
Speaker 2:We'll let him come to the trombone dinner. Okay, and in closing, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to say?
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably, but I have no idea what that is. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like I could talk to you for hours. There's so much there's so many things I would love to cover, but at this festival we have a tighter window. We have other things to do.
Speaker 2:We have a tighter window, we have other things to do man, I just want to thank you so much for, first of all, sitting down with us and for your contributions to the trombone world and the contributions to the art world and the contributions you continue to make and will make, and we can't wait to hear you perform. That's tomorrow night. Better practice, better practice, yeah, but thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3:Let's hear it for Wycliffe Gordon.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys.
Speaker 3:Appreciate you, Joe. See you guys around. Thank you.